NOT Turning Right-On-Red At Traffic Light Controlled Intersection | GTAMotorcycle.com

NOT Turning Right-On-Red At Traffic Light Controlled Intersection

IXFe

IXFe

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I saw this yesterday.
I was the first car stopped at a multi-lane intersection.
When travelling in my direction, there was a dedicated left-turn lane, two lanes for going straight ahead and a dedicated right-turn lane. There were NO signs that prohibited right-turns-on-red.

While I was stopped in a lane that goes straight ahead, a minivan pulled up beside me in the dedicated right-turn lane and stopped.
It was early afternoon so traffic was very light in all directions.
Despite good visibility, dry conditions and no cross-traffic for miles, the minivan driver did not proceed to make the right turn. She was just staring up at the traffic light, both hands on the steering wheel.
A second vehicle pulled up behind her and started to honk his horn A LOT to encourage her to make the right turn. I looked over and could see his arms flailing about inside his car too. She just waited for the light to turn green before proceeding.

Question: Was she obliged by law to proceed and make that right-turn-on-red?
 
IXFe said:
I saw this yesterday.
I was the first car stopped at a multi-lane intersection.
When travelling in my direction, there was a dedicated left-turn lane, two lanes for going straight ahead and a dedicated right-turn lane. There were NO signs that prohibited right-turns-on-red.

While I was stopped in a lane that goes straight ahead, a minivan pulled up beside me in the dedicated right-turn lane and stopped.
It was early afternoon so traffic was very light in all directions.
Despite good visibility, dry conditions and no cross-traffic for miles, the minivan driver did not proceed to make the right turn. She was just staring up at the traffic light, both hands on the steering wheel.
A second vehicle pulled up behind her and started to honk his horn A LOT to encourage her to make the right turn. I looked over and could see his arms flailing about inside his car too. She just waited for the light to turn green before proceeding.

Question: Was she obliged by law to proceed and make that right-turn-on-red?
Click to expand...

Well when I first came here from Brussels, this happened to me a couple of times until somebody explained to me that you could make a right hand turn on a red light here.
Maybe she just didn't know ;)
 
There is no regulation in the HTA which requires her to make the right turn, while the signal is red. It is her decision. The only stipulation is that the turn MUST be made in a "safe manner" if she decided for whatever reason that in her mind it wasn't safe to proceed, she is technically and legally fine to wait.

It may also have been she was considering going when the guy behind her started to freak out. So she then decided he could wait until the light turned green.
 
I think legal right turns on red is fairly unusual outside of North America. We're the oddballs. :)
 
Dresden said:
Maybe she's from Montreal (island) where you can't turn right on red?
Click to expand...

What this guy said.

Whats worse is the people that don't want to cross the line on left turns during green lights unless theres a clear view of absolutely no traffic coming (Note: If this person is stopped behind the line and theres a person turning left on the other side, there is no line of sight of incoming traffic).
I had to wait behind someone for 2 1/2 light rotations last year because of this... >.>
 
I've seen this a lot more lately, like several times on my way to work.

Best one this morning was on Wellington West at York (not dedicated right but whatever). Car that had just blasted past me and cut me off to get in the right lane full stops at red with right signal on. Waits waits waits waits for nothing, light turns green he guns it to turn right and then slams brakes to avoid hitting pedestrian.

Likely Quebecer immigrants but so many recently?

Other theory is the same as the people that don't go on advance greens: busy on their cellphones. I'm seeing more people slow down approaching intersections as well so they can use the time at the lights to pull out their phones.

There oughta be a law...
 
For those that fixate with right turn on red they should review the MTO Driver's Handbook first so that they actually know and understand the traffic laws before they start to criticize (honk) at those in front of them. As was stated by earlier poster you may turn right on red when the way is clear. The problem becomes when you are the following vehicle you are not in the same position to see what the vehicle ahead sees; also you don't know what they need to do after the right turn. What if the driver ahead of you has to turn or change lane just after completing the right turn? If that is the case, it is prudent for them to wait until cross-traffic is clear before moving off.

Related point to right turn on red: when you are facing a red light and a green directional arrow pointing to left, you are to turn only to left. If opposite traffic is turning right you are not to turn to right as your movement will interfere with them. If there isn't any turning traffic then no harm done by turning (but still illegal).

As for the left turn problem, most people don't know that when you are at an intersection where traffic is separated by concrete islands that they can perform a shift to the left to allow them to see; they therefore are very uncomfortable and wait outside of the intersection.
 
trebororr said:
For those that fixate with right turn on red they should review the MTO Driver's Handbook first so that they actually know and understand the traffic laws before they start to criticize (honk) at those in front of them....
Click to expand...

The "MTO Driver's Handbook" has nothing to do with the law. The Ontario HTA does.
 
IXFe said:
I saw this yesterday.
I was the first car stopped at a multi-lane intersection.
When travelling in my direction, there was a dedicated left-turn lane, two lanes for going straight ahead and a dedicated right-turn lane. There were NO signs that prohibited right-turns-on-red.

While I was stopped in a lane that goes straight ahead, a minivan pulled up beside me in the dedicated right-turn lane and stopped.
It was early afternoon so traffic was very light in all directions.
Despite good visibility, dry conditions and no cross-traffic for miles, the minivan driver did not proceed to make the right turn. She was just staring up at the traffic light, both hands on the steering wheel.
A second vehicle pulled up behind her and started to honk his horn A LOT to encourage her to make the right turn. I looked over and could see his arms flailing about inside his car too. She just waited for the light to turn green before proceeding.

Question: Was she obliged by law to proceed and make that right-turn-on-red?
Click to expand...

Now try sitting behind a person that doesn't want to turn left from a one way street to another one way street on a red. It's not required to go but come on...
 
here......

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...-have-to-turn-right-on-a-red/article14475218/


“There’s nothing that says you have to make that right hand turn when it’s red,” says Traffic Services Const. Clinton Stibbe. “It’s up to you to decide whether it’s safe to make that turn – you’re the one putting yourself in jeopardy if it’s not.”

Section 144.19 of Ontario’s Highway Traffic Act says you may make a right turn at a red light if there are no sign forbidding it, as long as you come to a complete stop and wait until the way is clear.

The important word here is may.

“This gives that driver the option of making the right turn when they feel fully comfortable and safe making the manoeuvre,” says Ministry of Transportation spokesman Bob Nichols, in an e-mail. “The HTA does not require you to make your right turn when the path is clear of traffic; however, not doing so may irritate drivers behind you waiting to make a similar right turn.”

That same law says you can turn left from a one-way to another one-way on a red light (again, unless there’s a sign telling you not to).

There are reasons to wait at that red, Stibbe says. What may appear to be a safe path to the guy honking behind you isn’t necessarily safe.

“That driver can’t see what you see, and he’s not the one making the turn,” says Stibbe. “There might be a dog or a child who look like they might cross – or there could be a car that’s going way too fast and will hit you if you make the turn.”

Once you make that turn and enter traffic, you’re at fault for collisions, Stibbe says.

“There might be a car signalling to turn who doesn’t actually make the turn, maybe he forgot his signal light was on, and you go ahead because you think he’s turning,” he says. “Who’s responsible if he goes straight through and hits you? You are.”

Stibbe says there’s no law that punishes caution. And he says it’s not worth it to rush to make that turn because the driver behind you is annoyed.
Click to expand...
 
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Splash said:
The "MTO Driver's Handbook" has nothing to do with the law. The Ontario HTA does.
Click to expand...

The Driver's Handbook is a simplification of the HTA so that the average (intelligence) person can understand how to drive properly and safely. The HTA is written in legal terms not simple terms. There are very few points in the handbook that are not directly based upon HTA regulations.
 
I am typically very conservative when it comes to making a right on red.

Perhaps someone from the other side of the intersection has an advanced-left-turn arrow. Maybe they are going into their correct lane ... or maybe they are going all the way to the right lane which is the same one that I want to turn on to. They're not supposed to do that, but we all know it happens. If there are opposite-direction people doing an advanced-left-turn-arrow left ... I'm not making that right on red unless I can synchronize that turn with a gap in traffic.

Or maybe there is traffic on the cross street. Perhaps the lane corresponding to the one that I want to turn onto does indeed have a gap. But if there is a car in the next lane over, how do you know that car is not going to make an unsignalled lane change to the right as they pass through the intersection? You DON'T. It's not supposed to happen. They're not supposed to do that. But it happens. And good luck proving that their signal was not on in court.

Basically I will do it if there is NO one coming. Anything short of that ... I don't trust the other drivers to do the right thing.

In countries following Vienna-convention traffic rules - which is most of the world outside of US and Canada - there is no turn on a red traffic signal, and I can understand why.
 
trebororr said:
For those that fixate with right turn on red they should review the MTO Driver's Handbook first so that they actually know and understand the traffic laws before they start to criticize (honk) at those in front of them. As was stated by earlier poster you may turn right on red when the way is clear. The problem becomes when you are the following vehicle you are not in the same position to see what the vehicle ahead sees; also you don't know what they need to do after the right turn. What if the driver ahead of you has to turn or change lane just after completing the right turn? If that is the case, it is prudent for them to wait until cross-traffic is clear before moving off.
Click to expand...

I will honk at somebody in front of me if (a) I feel it's a good idea and (b) if I'm in the mood. Both (a) and (b) need to be satisfied to initiate honking action. The driver in front of me will always get the benefit of the doubt. This can only be if I have a clear view of the situation. A stopped car in the vicinity, for example, does not present an immediate danger. That is to say it cannot accelerate to the potential collision site in .001 seconds. Another red flag is the head turned to the right, away from where the traffic would be coming from, for long periods of time. This is exacerbated if the offending vehicle has a passenger at the receiving end of a long winded monologue. It is my view that driving should be an engaged, proactive activity governed by a sensible social contract.
 
trebororr said:
Related point to right turn on red: when you are facing a red light and a green directional arrow pointing to left, you are to turn only to left. If opposite traffic is turning right you are not to turn to right as your movement will interfere with them. If there isn't any turning traffic then no harm done by turning (but still illegal).

As for the left turn problem, most people don't know that when you are at an intersection where traffic is separated by concrete islands that they can perform a shift to the left to allow them to see; they therefore are very uncomfortable and wait outside of the intersection.
Click to expand...
This is actually untrue, if you're facing a red light you can make the right turn.

http://www.wheels.ca/guides/advance-green-doesnt-prevent-a-right-turn-on-red/
 
iFly55 said:
This is actually untrue, if you're facing a red light you can make the right turn.

http://www.wheels.ca/guides/advance-green-doesnt-prevent-a-right-turn-on-red/
Click to expand...

This is a classic example of what is wrong with the HTA, it is too confusing leading to problems.

"When there is a red light and a left-turn green arrow displayed on the far left signal head, left-turn drivers may proceed to turn. At the same time, the right side signal head will display red only, and turning right on red is allowed after stopping and yielding." Bob Nicholls. Yielding seems to mean different things to different people in Ontario. What happens in a situation where there are multiple lanes in the crossing road and the left turning vehicle has to turn right just past the intersection to enter a driveway, a roadway, or a freeway onramp? Is that part of the yielding that Bob Nicholls means or is the driver which had a green light (arrow) has to yield to the right turning driver which had a red traffic light? Do you really want to have another vehicle beside you in a turn? If a collision happens who is at fault?
 
trebororr said:
This is a classic example of what is wrong with the HTA, it is too confusing leading to problems.

"When there is a red light and a left-turn green arrow displayed on the far left signal head, left-turn drivers may proceed to turn. At the same time, the right side signal head will display red only, and turning right on red is allowed after stopping and yielding." Bob Nicholls. Yielding seems to mean different things to different people in Ontario. What happens in a situation where there are multiple lanes in the crossing road and the left turning vehicle has to turn right just past the intersection to enter a driveway, a roadway, or a freeway onramp? Is that part of the yielding that Bob Nicholls means or is the driver which had a green light (arrow) has to yield to the right turning driver which had a red traffic light? Do you really want to have another vehicle beside you in a turn? If a collision happens who is at fault?
Click to expand...

What's confusing about that? If there's no sign that says "no right turn on RED" then you can turn on the RED. It's not that hard.

trebororr said:
The Driver's Handbook is a simplification of the HTA so that the average (intelligence) person can understand how to drive properly and safely. The HTA is written in legal terms not simple terms. There are very few points in the handbook that are not directly based upon HTA regulations.
Click to expand...

For example: The Driver's Handbook says you must stop at the traffic signal that is out (no lights) but the HTA says you must yield the right of way. Which one do you think is the law?

The Driver's Handbook
"use the intersection the same way you would use an intersection with all-way stop signs."

HTA:
"Every driver approaching an intersection shall yield the right of way to any vehicle in the intersection that has entered it from an intersecting highway."
 
Splash said:
What's confusing about that? If there's no sign that says "no right turn on RED" then you can turn on the RED. It's not that hard.



For example: The Driver's Handbook says you must stop at the traffic signal that is out (no lights) but the HTA says you must yield the right of way. Which one do you think is the law?

The Driver's Handbook
"use the intersection the same way you would use an intersection with all-way stop signs."

HTA:
"Every driver approaching an intersection shall yield the right of way to any vehicle in the intersection that has entered it from an intersecting highway."
Click to expand...

You are oversimplifying the situation;in your scenario all riders/drivers are highly skilled and observant and everything flows; unfortunately that is typically not the case in Ontario.

In the situation that I am using both vehicles are at the intersection at the same time, there isn't anyone approaching as is mentioned in the HTA quote. In the GTA very near major intersections you have refueling stations, roadways or freeway onramps. If I am turning left using the left turn arrow onto a multi-lane road and from the opposite side another driver/rider is turning right, how can I turn to right into the driveway, roadway or on-ramp? As I asked (mentioned) in my post am I then supposed to yield to that driver (as I would have to for my safety) even though I have a green light (arrow) and they have a red traffic light? Majority of GTA drivers don't even bother to stop right turn on red let alone yield to the vehicle already in intersection.
 
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