$134 mil for 5 choppers doesn't seem too bad, the Toronto police budget alone is $1.2 billion. The largest city in Canada not having its own police helicopter does seem short sighted.
|
|
|
New helicopters
- Thread starter Fuzzbuster
- Start date
Time will tell but I highly suspect we would have been better off with commercial drones. These helicopters are being used as glorified camera platforms. Take the people out and you can shrink the platform and operating cost.
I don't know if there is a drone operation category that would work well though. I am thinking of operation/clearances like a conventional aircraft but it happens to be unmanned.
Last edited:
That's 10 percent if my math is correct. What do the choppers do that adds value.
Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
Probably not, range/uptime is going to be a big problem; e.g. situations where you want to track for future pursuit/stops.
Glad I got that Canada Day ride in!
sburns
Well-known member
TPS already has drones. I met a couple of off duty officers playing with a off lease model. They are basically highly upgraded DJI models with infrared, auto pilot, speaker, mic and other googies. Quiet impressive. Mostly used for search and rescue, tracking, and helping ground units, etc.
I’m sure the helicopters will add to the toolset for bigger situations. I can’t see street racing being a huge problem with the congestion. But maybe they are going to get more serious about patrolling the 401 where a lot of stupid happens
Sent from the Moon!
I’m sure the helicopters will add to the toolset for bigger situations. I can’t see street racing being a huge problem with the congestion. But maybe they are going to get more serious about patrolling the 401 where a lot of stupid happens
Sent from the Moon!
VTOL with 90+ minute flight time are available now. I don't know if the perfect chopper replacement done exists but I suspect something good enough exists for about two orders of magnitude less money than the chippers. I also expect much higher possible uptime. Much less maintenance on a drone and if you used some of the cost savings, you could buy five times as many so they were ready to deploy or handoff from many bases.
I'm not talking about toy drones, I'm talking about drones that are a few hundred pounds. Was it tps or York that was flying a drone in Buttonville airspace without permission and hit a plane? Big drones need to be flown by competent operators not children with guns.TPS already has drones. I met a couple of off duty officers playing with a off lease model. They are basically highly upgraded DJI models with infrared, auto pilot, speaker, mic and other googies. Quiet impressive. Mostly used for search and rescue, tracking, and helping ground units, etc.
I’m sure the helicopters will add to the toolset for bigger situations. I can’t see street racing being a huge problem with the congestion. But maybe they are going to get more serious about patrolling the 401 where a lot of stupid happens
Sent from the Moon!
Last edited:
TK4
Well-known member
Saw one being flown over the Clarkson area near the QEW yesterday. I wonder what was going on ?
Fuzzbuster
Well-known member
I think drones would have been a better investment as well. I also wonder if these will be used as personal taxis for certain politicians and VIP's. Get here to there quickly and protected!
sburns
Well-known member
This wasn’t a toy drone, like I said it had all the police mods, flown by a TPS operator.
Sent from the Moon!
By toy I mean briefcase style. Upgraded equipment or not, it only has a few minutes of flight time. Very useful for crash investigation, checking windows/balconies at a fire, etc but useless at tracking vehicles over distance or longer-term surveillance.This wasn’t a toy drone, like I said it had all the police mods, flown by a TPS operator.
Sent from the Moon!
I put police drone operators in the kids with guns category. If they are flying for a living, they should have enough training to understand plane ops as well as radios to talk to ATC. As used now, they seem to fly when/where they want and the rules don't apply to them as they are the law.
Pretend they are aircraft and fly them as such and I think they would actually be better than helicopters for most tasks.
Last edited:
The 5 choppers are 10% (134 mil), so the 1 chopper going to TPS is ~27 mil, which is roughly 3% of the TPS budget. I think that's reasonable.
Regarding drones, it might work for the GTA but for people like OPP that cover wider areas, not so much. They also can't carry people and lack all around versatility beyond surveillance. On paper I think this makes sense, my biggest gripe though is that TPS does so little traffic enforcement as it is...
While true, when was the last time you heard of a police helicopter being used for anything besides surveillance/traffic enforcement? For that matter, when has a police helicopter landed away from it's home aerodrome? Paying tens of millions for what-ifs is an expensive standby charge. When a helicopter recently helped with a fast-water rescue, it came from Borden (and it would next time too). These aren't going to be outfitted for hoisting people. They are taxis/speed cameras/eye in the sky for >$1500/hr of flight time.
As for wider areas, a helicopter is a crap tool for a huge area. Fixed wing makes a lot more sense when long distances are involved. Fixed-wing obviously has issues with take-off/landing sites but I suspect the helicopters will be stored at fixed-wing aerodromes anyway so that's a wash.
Last edited:
There will be 1 helicopter each for Halton, Peel and Toronto..... + the OPP will have 2, 5 in total.
The devil is in the details as to how they will be deployed, and we have no info on this.
How many hours a day will they be in the air? Will they be on patrol, waiting for a call, or will they be on the ground waiting for that call? How many pilots and aircrew members will be trained and on duty at a time. Will helicopters be available 24/7, or just at specific times? Will all of these helicopters be stationed at one location? Will there be cross coverage by Halton, Peel, Toronto and the OPP? Lots and lots of questions.
jetsupport.com
=======================================
When it comes to base maintenance, which requires longer downtime, frequencies are significantly longer – typically every 12 months or up to 300–400 hours. It is worth remembering that although most maintenance tasks have an allowance to extend the task (if allowed by the regional aviation authority) but this is generally by no more than 10%.
=======================================
If you assume the 400 hour mark for base maintenance then that's 10 weeks of use at just 40 flight hours per week or about 6 hours a day. If they intend to run the helicopter over several shifts then that Base Maintenance is due every 5 weeks. Base Maintenance can take up to a week to perform, meaning of course the unit is out of service for that time.
I think the area to be covered is huge and 5 helicopters is simply not enough to do the job properly, whatever that job is. We're going to find out a year after taking delivery that actual "in flight" time is very small and they will have had minimal impact on crime as a whole.
Yes, I'm a complete cynic on this and most of what Dougie does. Lots of flash, but poor planning and execution.
The devil is in the details as to how they will be deployed, and we have no info on this.
How many hours a day will they be in the air? Will they be on patrol, waiting for a call, or will they be on the ground waiting for that call? How many pilots and aircrew members will be trained and on duty at a time. Will helicopters be available 24/7, or just at specific times? Will all of these helicopters be stationed at one location? Will there be cross coverage by Halton, Peel, Toronto and the OPP? Lots and lots of questions.
How Often Does a Helicopter Need Maintenance?
Timely helicopter maintenance is critical as operators manage a utilization increase while continuing to navigate a challenging business climate.
jetsupport.com
=======================================
How does helicopter design affect maintenance requirements?
Advancements in helicopter design are helping to extend maintenance times. For example, visual inspection airworthiness directives (ADs) have a frequency of 10–25 flying hours on some models. Several modern helicopters can even run for 50–100 hours without needing maintenance, although they will still need a daily inspection prior to flight.When it comes to base maintenance, which requires longer downtime, frequencies are significantly longer – typically every 12 months or up to 300–400 hours. It is worth remembering that although most maintenance tasks have an allowance to extend the task (if allowed by the regional aviation authority) but this is generally by no more than 10%.
Base Maintenance
Base maintenance involves the undertaking of more complex tasks. These require longer periods of downtime and more mechanics to perform them. Traditionally, this work is carried out at a base maintenance facility, where all the necessary staff, tooling, and ground support equipment are immediately available.=======================================
If you assume the 400 hour mark for base maintenance then that's 10 weeks of use at just 40 flight hours per week or about 6 hours a day. If they intend to run the helicopter over several shifts then that Base Maintenance is due every 5 weeks. Base Maintenance can take up to a week to perform, meaning of course the unit is out of service for that time.
I think the area to be covered is huge and 5 helicopters is simply not enough to do the job properly, whatever that job is. We're going to find out a year after taking delivery that actual "in flight" time is very small and they will have had minimal impact on crime as a whole.
Yes, I'm a complete cynic on this and most of what Dougie does. Lots of flash, but poor planning and execution.
Iirc when I checked the numbers on the existing choppers they averaged less than two hours a day in the air. Why fully utilize existing assets when you can just buy more to also sit idle?There will be 1 helicopter each for Halton, Peel and Toronto..... + the OPP will have 2, 5 in total.
The devil is in the details as to how they will be deployed, and we have no info on this.
How many hours a day will they be in the air? Will they be on patrol, waiting for a call, or will they be on the ground waiting for that call? How many pilots and aircrew members will be trained and on duty at a time. Will helicopters be available 24/7, or just at specific times? Will all of these helicopters be stationed at one location? Will there be cross coverage by Halton, Peel, Toronto and the OPP? Lots and lots of questions.
How Often Does a Helicopter Need Maintenance?
Timely helicopter maintenance is critical as operators manage a utilization increase while continuing to navigate a challenging business climate.
How does helicopter design affect maintenance requirements?
Advancements in helicopter design are helping to extend maintenance times. For example, visual inspection airworthiness directives (ADs) have a frequency of 10–25 flying hours on some models. Several modern helicopters can even run for 50–100 hours without needing maintenance, although they will still need a daily inspection prior to flight.
When it comes to base maintenance, which requires longer downtime, frequencies are significantly longer – typically every 12 months or up to 300–400 hours. It is worth remembering that although most maintenance tasks have an allowance to extend the task (if allowed by the regional aviation authority) but this is generally by no more than 10%.
Base Maintenance
Base maintenance involves the undertaking of more complex tasks. These require longer periods of downtime and more mechanics to perform them. Traditionally, this work is carried out at a base maintenance facility, where all the necessary staff, tooling, and ground support equipment are immediately available.
If you assume the 400 hour mark for base maintenance then that's 10 weeks of use at just 40 flight hours per week or about 6 hours a day. If they intend to run the helicopter over several shifts then that Base Maintenance is due every 5 weeks. Base Maintenance can take up to a week to perform.
I think the area to be covered is huge and 5 helicopters is simply not enough to do the job properly, whatever that job is. We're going to find out a year after taking delivery that actual "in flight" time is very small and they will have had minimal impact on crime as a whole.
Yes, I'm a complete cynic on this and most of what Dougie does. Lots of flash, but poor planning and execution.
Because someone with power or influence wants the cops to have them. Just like combat fatigues (more so USA perhaps), and armored transports.
If you don't have multiple police choppers, you can't play expensive bumper cars.
sburns
Well-known member
Funny enough I ran into a person demo'ng what you might call a commercial drone, something pictured below. It actually wasn't that much better then the DJI. From what I remember the flight time wasn't that much longer. They can carry more gear, but other then that didn't seem better other then much more expensive. $10+ range.
I would think TPS would train their operators and would be complicit with any aviation rules. I believe I remember the guy I spoke with saying something about a license etc.
sburns
Well-known member
The city is going to grind to a halt anyhow with so much congestion.
A couple of weeks ago I rode lakeshore, and some point just around younge there was cop helping direct traffic as it was so congested. Even with their presence, asshats were still cutting in, last sec lane changes or just by passing them. F'ng selfish drivers.
|
|
|
|
|