Never asked a question till now..........

[woodzee]

The Bazazz system does not use wheel speed sensors

Hit the nail on the head. Do we have a prize for the winner ???

The Bazzaz system uses the existing speed sensor to pick up changes in the rpms which than engages the T.C. based on paramaeters set in the ECU.

Now the problem with this system is it only works when your on the throttle as it has nothing to compare with...don't ask me how I no this..my elbow still hurts to this day.

The best system uses both front and rear wheel sensors. However this is a little pricey for the average joe. So yamaha has devised a compromise and created a hybrid system that uses a front wheel sensor (no way around it) and have utilized the existing speed sensor already mounted on the bike. This will allow the bike to compare both wheel speeds and transition accordingly. And not add any additional weight or resistance to the rear wheel. You will not find any sensor wires near or around the front counter shaft sprocket because they don't exist. There is a newer sprocket for 2012 which has a different diameter and surface treatment to help with a noise issue but no special sprockets.

Ken, now changing the front sprockets will cause the bike to accerate harder/faster which would increase the likelyhood of tire spining on a big bore bike. The system would still work, however the default settings in the ECU would be slightly off so I would think that maybe say a 3 setting with a stock 16t front would maybe be a 5 with a 15T etc. if your following my thinking. It would just off a little bit sort of like a speedo healer.

If you've ever worked with a Yamaha Kit box there are settings in there for your gearing set-up etc. Which have some effects on a few minor systems. Now with T.C. this probably is more important as it would rebalance the system and allow you to make more adjustment to the system and allow for such drastic changes to the final drive like a 13t or something. The normal sprocket selection for these bikes are 16T,15T & 14T so your fine.

Note that Yamaha is not in the market to Sell everybody Kit ECU's & Harness..lol... these are limited production race peices and have no accomodations for creature comfort items like Highbeams, signals, etc. that would be required for street use.

Hopefully I've answered everything you need Ken. Anything else let me know...

 

[kneedragger88]

Hit the nail on the head. Do we have a prize for the winner ???

The Bazzaz system uses the existing speed sensor to pick up changes in the rpms which than engages the T.C. based on paramaeters set in the ECU.

Now the problem with this system is it only works when your on the throttle as it has nothing to compare with...don't ask me how I no this..my elbow still hurts to this day.

The best system uses both front and rear wheel sensors. However this is a little pricey for the average joe. So yamaha has devised a compromise and created a hybrid system that uses a front wheel sensor (no way around it) and have utilized the existing speed sensor already mounted on the bike. This will allow the bike to compare both wheel speeds and transition accordingly. And not add any additional weight or resistance to the rear wheel. You will not find any sensor wires near or around the front counter shaft sprocket because they don't exist. There is a newer sprocket for 2012 which has a different diameter and surface treatment to help with a noise issue but no special sprockets.

Ken, now changing the front sprockets will cause the bike to accerate harder/faster which would increase the likelyhood of tire spining on a big bore bike. The system would still work, however the default settings in the ECU would be slightly off so I would think that maybe say a 3 setting with a stock 16t front would maybe be a 5 with a 15T etc. if your following my thinking. It would just off a little bit sort of like a speedo healer.

If you've ever worked with a Yamaha Kit box there are settings in there for your gearing set-up etc. Which have some effects on a few minor systems. Now with T.C. this probably is more important as it would rebalance the system and allow you to make more adjustment to the system and allow for such drastic changes to the final drive like a 13t or something. The normal sprocket selection for these bikes are 16T,15T & 14T so your fine.

Note that Yamaha is not in the market to Sell everybody Kit ECU's & Harness..lol... these are limited production race peices and have no accomodations for creature comfort items like Highbeams, signals, etc. that would be required for street use.

Hopefully I've answered everything you need Ken. Anything else let me know...

While I appreciate the thought I dont think by what I have read that its "that" simple. First the Bazzaz system is primitive at best and kinda like comparing apples to oranges. In Yamaha's own words the primary information that the system uses is a comparison of front and rear wheel speed. In this case the rear is accomplished with a countershaft sensor (I suspect they are piggybacking the speedo sensor) therefore the ECU has to determine wheel speed using the stock gearing. Different gearing (front or rear sprocket doesnt matter) changes the rear wheel speed.
Since I have posted this I spoke to Yamaha Canada (no I didnt call them just happened to be a group situation with a techie so I asked) I was told straight from the horses mouth that if you are racing one and want to change the gearing you need the kit ECU or the bike will throw codes and cause the traction control to be inoperative.
Thanks for all the posts I have the answer I was looking for, not that I will buying a new R1 anytime soon just satisfies my curiosity.

 

[SunnY S]

Since I have posted this I spoke to Yamaha Canada (no I didnt call them just happened to be a group situation with a techie so I asked) I was told straight from the horses mouth that if you are racing one and want to change the gearing you need the kit ECU or the bike will throw codes and cause the traction control to be inoperative.
.

Ken.... I finally got to read the article you quoted from today!

Very good and technical article, and perhaps the best explanation I could find online and in all the mag reviews I read.

Indeed, it appears the the rear doesnt use a rws, depsite the contrary written in all the other articles on the bike. One of the other technical articles confirmed what the Yamaha people confirmed. As soon as you mess around with the system, it shuts down the TCS.

Still, its a crappy overall TCS system compared to the competition. Lack of gyro and lean angle sensors, for example and more.

I stand corrected.

 

[Brian P]

You will not find any sensor wires near or around the front counter shaft sprocket because they don't exist. There is a newer sprocket for 2012 which has a different diameter and surface treatment to help with a noise issue but no special sprockets.

I forgot about this. Yamaha doesn't put the sensor on the countershaft sprocket cover the way most others do it. The sensor is internal to the cases and detects the transmission output shaft speed. The net result is exactly the same ... it picks up the speed of the shaft upon which the front sprocket is installed, as opposed to the rear wheel speed, and changing the gearing results in this sensor reading incorrectly.

If the race kit ECU doesn't provide for the various street-related functions then track-day riders who want to make the bike do double duty as a street bike (the number of these riders outnumbers the number of racers probably by a factor of 10) will have to wait for someone to create an aftermarket ECU that combines both functions.

 

[woodzee]

The net result is exactly the same ... it picks up the speed of the shaft upon which the front sprocket is installed, as opposed to the rear wheel speed, and changing the gearing results in this sensor reading incorrectly.

The output shaft speed never varies when sprockets are changed only the overall bike travel speed varies. The output shaft will still spin at the same rate at say 8,000rpm in 3rd whether your running a 17T or a 15T front sprocket. So Sprockets should not be an issue. The ECU/TC is detecing slip above a 5% change. (a factor built in to allow for tire wear, etc.) So if your running super light gearing and spinup the rear the system will still engage.

Were the issue will be is when you change tire size (run a 180 rear instead of a 190) or run further away from stock gearing say like a 15T or 14T front. The system will engage but because the widening gab between the front wheel measurement & the Rear wheel (output shaft) measurement is increasing there is greater chance of the system being slightly off from OEM specs. Which is why I was referring to being equal to a different setting on the TC to get the same "feel" from the unit after the change.

I would think it's sort of the the Air/fuel systems in the OEM ECU. If you put on a slip-on your pretty safe as there is a slight compensation factor built into the system but if you run a full system if would work just not perfect...hence the Power Commander and in this case the YEC RACE ECU.

The Kit YEC ECU/harness basically removes the preset values for the Traction control and makes it infinately adjustable similar to say Bazzaz or Magneti Marrielli. I think it's premature to assume that this TC will eliminate gearing changes as these bikes are basically designed for track use.

 

[monkeydonkey]

They don't mention it here...
http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/08/19/electronic-warfare-comparison-test/
but same peace in magazine has separate article on the bottom of the page for gsxr 1000 with bazzaz box and
around the track only BMW was faster.

 

[Brian P]

No, you haven't quite got it ...

The traction control system cares about inertia, forces, relative motions (slip), etc located at the tire contact patch.

Let's use round numbers for illustration. Stock bike 3:1 final drive ratio. Front wheel (actual road speed) spinning 1000 rpm, rear wheel (actual road speed) spinning 1000 rpm. Due to the final drive ratio, the transmission output shaft is spinning at 3000 rpm. The traction control system knows that, and does all of its calculations based on this. Everything's good. With me so far?

Rider accelerates. Front wheel at this moment is 1000 rpm but accelerating at 100 rpm per second. Rear wheel is at 1000 rpm and accelerating at 100 rpm/sec equally with the front (no traction loss) but the TCS is not measuring this, it is seeing the transmission output shaft at 3000 rpm and accelerating at 300 rpm/s. It back calculates this to the rear wheel speed and all is good. Still with me?

Now, rider hammers the throttle and the rear wheel slips. Front wheel still spinning at 1000 rpm and accelerates at 100 rpm/sec. Rear wheel is at (say) 1100 rpm and accelerating at 200 rpm/s. But it is not directly measured, the traction control sees 3300 rpm accelerating at 600 rpm/s. Aye ... there is a slippage between front and rear wheels which is increasing, the TCS sees this and cuts engine output torque.

But ... suppose the final drive ratio has been changed (or the tire profile has been radically changed). Say final drive is now 4:1. But the ECU has no way of knowing it.

Front wheel speed is 1000 rpm. Transmission output shaft is at 4000 rpm. Those are what the TCS sees. But it's programmed that the 3:1 ratio is what is allowed. According to what the TCS sees, the rear wheel is spinning at 1333 rpm - slipping considerably relative to the front.

Obviously, if the logic were "smart", it could see that the numbers are in proportion and the accelerations are in proportion and conclude that there is no issue requiring corrective action, but rather that it should recalculate itself to use the new final drive ratio.

But evidently, the programming is NOT "smart". It sees rear wheel speed in excess of front wheel speed by more than a certain margin and then throws its hands up in defeat, "I don't know what has happened and I'm confused".

That is if the front wheel speed were compared to transmission output shaft speed.

If the wheel speeds were measured directly (Kawasaki, Honda, Ducati, and everyone else ...) there is no issue. It matters not that the final drive ratio has been changed. The TCS sees front wheel speed 1000 rpm and rear wheel speed 1000 rpm and all is good, or it sees front wheel speed 1000 rpm and rear wheel speed 1100 rpm and increasing fast, and it is not good. The final drive ratio doesn't enter into the picture.

YES significantly different tire profiles front to rear can still affect this but the effect is a lot smaller. 190/55-17 rear tire = 25.22" theoretical rolling diameter, 200/60 rear tire (biggest I know of in common use) = 26.45" rolling diameter, less than 5% difference. The difference between the "nominal" tire size and the biggest in common use is like changing 2 teeth on the rear sprocket and less than that of changing 1 tooth on the front sprocket.

 

[woodzee]

I've got it, I just don't explain myself as well as you do Brian...lol. Your actually proving my point for me just maybe clearer than myself.

Okay maybe this will help. I've yet to see a 1000cc bike with a 4:1 gear ratio with the exception of maybe a stunt bike. Everything coming out from all manufacturers is floating around the 3:1 range. The new r1 is no exception. I comes with a 17/47 gearing which puts it in at 2.765:1 on the gearing chart in stock form. So If I were to swap in "shanny gearing" (16/49) which is subjective to rider preferrence I'd be around a 3.063:1 ratio. If the factory put in a std. program for 3:1 I'd actually only be off this ratio by 21 rpm at the rear wheel even if they set the program for the stock gearing at 2.765:1 I'd still only be off by just a 99.34 rpm at the rear wheel which is not as great as your suggesting.

So what does all this prove...well I suck at explaining myself for one. Secondly, the system will still work just not as well as with stock gearing as it is default set to because it's not perfect..it's preset.

Will it crash the system...no it won't crash the system the actual differences we are talking about are pretty small and will just engage the system slightly earlier than originally designed for. So you probably require a level adjustment on the switch to get the same responsiveness from the system as compared to stock. Maybe a turn down or turn up depending on which way you change the gearing.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Stupid and cheap why not do it right like everyone else, what did they save $2 and a couple of ounces? My 2009 Duc has front and rear wheel sensors as well as bank angle.

 

[Brian P]

There was an argument between the engineers and the accountants. The accountants won.

They could have fixed this by using the rear wheel speed sensor and eliminating the one at the engine ... just install a blank plug instead of the sensor if they didn't want to change the design of the crankcase to eliminate the sensor. But it would have required a couple feet of extra wiring to go to that sensor and it would have cost something for that blanking plug ... It happens ...

 

[fastar1]

Okay maybe this will help. I've yet to see a 1000cc bike with a 4:1 gear ratio with the exception of maybe a stunt bike. Everything coming out from all manufacturers is floating around the 3:1 range. The new r1 is no exception. I comes with a 17/47 gearing which puts it in at 2.765:1 on the gearing chart in stock form. So If I were to swap in "shanny gearing" (16/49) which is subjective to rider preferrence I'd be around a 3.063:1 ratio. If the factory put in a std. program for 3:1 I'd actually only be off this ratio by 21 rpm at the rear wheel even if they set the program for the stock gearing at 2.765:1 I'd still only be off by just a 99.34 rpm at the rear wheel which is not as great as your suggesting.

So what does all this prove...well I suck at explaining myself for one. Secondly, the system will still work just not as well as with stock gearing as it is default set to because it's not perfect..it's preset.

Will it crash the system...no it won't crash the system the actual differences we are talking about are pretty small and will just engage the system slightly earlier than originally designed for. So you probably require a level adjustment on the switch to get the same responsiveness from the system as compared to stock. Maybe a turn down or turn up depending on which way you change the gearing.

The "pretty small" difference in your example is about 3x greater than what the system considers normal.

Using your figures, 3.063/2.765 = 1.1077 which means that just coasting down the stree without any slip at all, the system thinks the rear is spinning 10.7% slower than it should be. Since maximum grip is acheived at 3-5% overspeed, the TC on this hypothetical bike wouldn't kick in until the tire is in the range of 15% slip, where the benefit is lost. That is, if the TC even functions at all (would probably disable the system to run in some failsafe mode).

 

[mxs]

There was an argument between the engineers and the accountants. The accountants won.

They could have fixed this by using the rear wheel speed sensor and eliminating the one at the engine ... just install a blank plug instead of the sensor if they didn't want to change the design of the crankcase to eliminate the sensor. But it would have required a couple feet of extra wiring to go to that sensor and it would have cost something for that blanking plug ... It happens ...

The said part is that 2012 R1 is going to be the most expensive out of all the litre bikes (at least that's what is being suggested by most sources). So the accountants were trying to save on the wrong part and it was still not enough ....