MSF M2 or MTO M2?

[Baggsy]

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I know, its just im worried ill panic/choke again ****

Bingo! I think i know how to solve this for the retest
"Do not shift gears while you are turning. A rough, jerky downshift can cause the rear wheel to lock, resulting in a skid. Applying too much power can cause the rear tire to lose traction, also resulting in a skid. It is best to shift gears before entering a turn"

Thats from the MTO
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/handbook/motorcycles/section3-5-0.shtml

sounds good, i think i should be ok this saturday for the retest

If they said retest rather than redo, then they know that you can pass the test.
Otherwise, they would have asked you to start over. Everything on the test, you did on the course.
The turn on the compound curve might even be sharper than that on the test.

I don't recall anywhere that you actually need to downshift.

You can go through the first curve faster if you do upshift, but without short shifting.

Think of it as an evaluation of what you learned, rather than a test.

 

[stevie t]

Your centennial retest will be the most economical option for you, if cost is an issue. Your practice will be a right hand turn and curve setup with pylons, you will not be allowed to run in the actual painted test until the retest. It will be on Saturday afternoon after the class is done, usually anywhere from 1 to 10 students.

I cannot be sure, but from your description of how it went, it sounds like you may have 'choked' on the test. If so, try it again without 30 students and not sub zero temps, it will make a big difference.

You should also not be looking to get through it with out mastering the basics of the test.

The right hand turn and curve is an attempt at approximating you pulling into traffic by making a right hand turn out of a driveway into your lane and lane postion, pretty basic skill if you want to ride on the street. Imagine some rider pulling out in front of your car and pinning the bike in first gear to make speed and merge into traffic and never shifting into second gear, assuming they didn't turn wide into oncoming traffic....you don't want to be that rider.

Good luck with the retest...

There is another option for you as well...you can check with MTOhp as I believe they have a program 'More Riding Time' which may allow you to take the course over with a retest, ....not sure of the details or the costbut it is substantially less than the full course fee, you can check that out on their website to confirm.

In the spirit of full disclosure...I currently work at both Centennial and MTOhp as an instructor in the M1X program and previously at Learning Curves M1X program as well.

 

[supernova12034]

Your centennial retest will be the most economical option for you, if cost is an issue. Your practice will be a right hand turn and curve setup with pylons, you will not be allowed to run in the actual painted test until the retest. It will be on Saturday afternoon after the class is done, usually anywhere from 1 to 10 students.

I cannot be sure, but from your description of how it went, it sounds like you may have 'choked' on the test. If so, try it again without 30 students and not sub zero temps, it will make a big difference.

You should also not be looking to get through it with out mastering the basics of the test.

The right hand turn and curve is an attempt at approximating you pulling into traffic by making a right hand turn out of a driveway into your lane and lane postion, pretty basic skill if you want to ride on the street. Imagine some rider pulling out in front of your car and pinning the bike in first gear to make speed and merge into traffic and never shifting into second gear, assuming they didn't turn wide into oncoming traffic....you don't want to be that rider.

Good luck with the retest...

There is another option for you as well...you can check with MTOhp as I believe they have a program 'More Riding Time' which may allow you to take the course over with a retest, ....not sure of the details or the costbut it is substantially less than the full course fee, you can check that out on their website to confirm.

In the spirit of full disclosure...I currently work at both Centennial and MTOhp as an instructor in the M1X program and previously at Learning Curves M1X program as well.

lol its the same cost as the m1 Exit at $500

I think ill just stick to the retest

 

[taximan62]

Since I was a CSC instructor and test examiner (what you guys call MSF which is the American version) I will give you this advise. The first 2 exercises on the test, 1. Right turn and accelerate through a curve and 2. Accelerate through a curve and stop in a box can be fully done in 1st gear. There is no need or requirement in the test to perform a shift! In the first exercise which you said you failed I suspect because of two things. You exceeded the maximum time 5 demerits, you went outside the line in the turning section 5 demerits and you were still outside the line in the curve section another 5 demerits totaling 15 which is a failure.

The first exercise is actually 2 distinct and separate exercises. The Right hand turn is actually exercise 1 and the accelerate in the curve (where the curve narrows from 3m wide to 1.5m wide) is the second exercise. If the rider goes outside the line in the right hand turn and gets back inside the line before the narrower curve then you only get hit for 5 demerits but if you continue on the outside and don't get back inside until after the narrow curve begins you are penalized again for 5 demerits.

The key cause for a rider going off course is that they are looking down and concentrating on the lines and or cones demarking the turns instead of looking up and where they want to go which is the end of the curve. Sorry couldn't put a better pic due to GTA size restrictions. You can download the pic and enlarge it.

 

[stevie t]

I believe it is either 175 or 225, depending on what you book. Your cheapest alternative would be to do your retest at Centennial for 50 bucks and not fuq it up this time...good luck.

 

[matt365]

Since I was a CSC instructor and test examiner

There sure is alot of us in here.

Durham, 10 years.

OP. Don't over think it.

Honestly doesn't matter how we score it.

Bike length in, look at the box at the end. Thats where you want to go. Forget the lines. You go where you look, and you don't want to go there...

Relax the upper body. Squeeze the knees.

Shift, or don't shift. As long as you do it in the alotted time, you're fine. Shift in the straight if you decide to.

Next week will be decent weather. The sooner you get in, the better.

 

[conundrum]

and who is going to insure an M1 rider?

I was insured with my M1 on a CBR250RA through TD MM. When I asked them about M1 and M2 rates, they said it is the same for a first year/new rider, and that the rate was a yearly one, conditional on my passing to M2 within 60-90 days. Failure to pass in that time frame meant cancellation of the policy. At least that's what they told me.

 

[PLau]

The place to fail/drop the bike is during the course. If the same situation arose on the street (say you're having a bad day or feel stressed out), the outcome would be completely different.

We've all made mistakes, and we've all probably stalled at a light or a stop sign at least once in our life, and the stress levels of having a car behind you trying to go (or even honking at you) will probably cause your stress levels to skyrocket. You're better off learning from the mistakes rather than beating yourself up over it.

If you know what you did wrong, you've already dealt with half the battle. Learning from your mistakes will help you as a rider in the long run and the parking lot would be the ideal place to make those mistakes.
Many of us seasoned riders even practice in parking lots as the season comes around again to brush up on our riding skills.

 

[supernova12034]

Since I was a CSC instructor and test examiner (what you guys call MSF which is the American version) I will give you this advise. The first 2 exercises on the test, 1. Right turn and accelerate through a curve and 2. Accelerate through a curve and stop in a box can be fully done in 1st gear. There is no need or requirement in the test to perform a shift! In the first exercise which you said you failed I suspect because of two things. You exceeded the maximum time 5 demerits, you went outside the line in the turning section 5 demerits and you were still outside the line in the curve section another 5 demerits totaling 15 which is a failure.

The first exercise is actually 2 distinct and separate exercises. The Right hand turn is actually exercise 1 and the accelerate in the curve (where the curve narrows from 3m wide to 1.5m wide) is the second exercise. If the rider goes outside the line in the right hand turn and gets back inside the line before the narrower curve then you only get hit for 5 demerits but if you continue on the outside and don't get back inside until after the narrow curve begins you are penalized again for 5 demerits.

The key cause for a rider going off course is that they are looking down and concentrating on the lines and or cones demarking the turns instead of looking up and where they want to go which is the end of the curve. Sorry couldn't put a better pic due to GTA size restrictions. You can download the pic and enlarge it.

Thanks, yeah I thought as much
I had issues shifting in the curve which may have contributed to my slower speed

I have a total of 16 points, 5 for going over the line, 5 for slow clockwise, and 5 for slow counter clockwise, and 1 point for touching the ground ( total of 16) it didn't help that I stalled even before I began the exercise and they started timing me..

So the killer is slow speed! I REALLY need to get past this irrational fear/mental block I have about speed in my head (any ideas on how to deal with this from the experienced riders?) How can I overcome this? It's almost like I have a warped sense of how fast I am going (I'll be doing 20 kph but it might feel like 80 so I'll get nervous or hold back or slow down or panic, panic which results in me choking and changing gears un smoothly which just snowballs to more slower time)

Also I was probably looking closely at the lines instead of where I needed to go which resulted in me going over the line..

With warmer weather, more practice at the facility next Saturday (iv booked the re test) along with me being calm and relaxed I should be able to pass the re test

 

[PrivatePilot]

So the killer is slow speed! I REALLY need to get past this irrational fear/mental block I have about speed in my head (any ideas on how to deal with this from the experienced riders?) How can I overcome this? It's almost like I have a warped sense of how fast I am going (I'll be doing 20 kph but it might feel like 80 so I'll get nervous or hold back or slow down or panic, panic which results in me choking and changing gears un smoothly which just snowballs to more slower time)

Remember the emergency braking portion of the course and how fast your bike can actually decelerate.

But on another note, if you're panicking because of increased speed it may be prudent to consider some further training unless that was only happening during the testing phase - how were you the rest of the course when you had the opportunity to pickup speed and get into higher gears? What was the fastest speed you achieved?

The concern with being scared of going fast is...what are you going to do the first time you get into traffic and MUST go fast otherwise someone will cream you from behind?

Motorcycles and panic end badly. Just sayin'.

 

[Blackfin]

So the killer is slow speed! I REALLY need to get past this irrational fear/mental block I have about speed in my head (any ideas on how to deal with this from the experienced riders?)

You're really going to have to get over this if you want to ride in traffic.

How can I overcome this? It's almost like I have a warped sense of how fast I am going (I'll be doing 20 kph but it might feel like 80 so I'll get nervous or hold back or slow down or panic, panic which results in me choking and changing gears un smoothly which just snowballs to more slower time)

Practice, preferably in an empty parking lot with an experienced rider. Do some follow the leader type exercises, gradually building up speed as you go and get more comfortable. Don't just focus on speed. Work on driving along parking lines, turning right angles to another parking line. Practice low-speed U-turns within these lines without putting feet down, standing on the pegs and sitting, looking where you want to go etc.

 

[supernova12034]

Remember the emergency braking portion of the course and how fast your bike can actually decelerate.

But on another note, if you're panicking because of increased speed it may be prudent to consider some further training unless that was only happening during the testing phase - how were you the rest of the course when you had the opportunity to pickup speed and get into higher gears? What was the fastest speed you achieved?

The concern with being scared of going fast is...what are you going to do the first time you get into traffic and MUST go fast otherwise someone will cream you from behind?

Motorcycles and panic end badly. Just sayin'.

You're really going to have to get over this if you want to ride in traffic.




Practice, preferably in an empty parking lot with an experienced rider. Do some follow the leader type exercises, gradually building up speed as you go and get more comfortable. Don't just focus on speed. Work on driving along parking lines, turning right angles to another parking line. Practice low-speed U-turns within these lines without putting feet down, standing on the pegs and sitting, looking where you want to go etc.

After doing a bit of thinking iv come to a realization of sorts...


Motorcycle riding is inherently dangerous, theres no protection(lol if you think a little leather is going to save you in a serious collision), at ANY moment you could do a high/lowside, get into a serious accident or die horribly getting hit by an 18 wheeler

Every time someone gets on a bike he accepts the risk that comes with it..


In essence Fear, Speed, and danger are part of the package, they come with the territory of riding a motorcycle, and one MUST get comfortable with that idea(and in essence overcome mental hurdle in my case), and realistically be ready for it


Its kind of like when i did boxing, if your gonna do it, but the IDEA of getting hit(and you WILL get hit, sometimes hard) scares you, you might not have a good outcome, so in essence you
HAVE to get comfortable with the idea, of that possibility(which is more than likely, even great fighters get hit, what to speak of average joes) or you might want to reconsider doing it entirely


This is the only way i can sort of rationally look at that fear and overcome it i feel

 

[PrivatePilot]

In essence Fear, Speed, and danger are part of the package, they come with the territory of riding a motorcycle

I'm never scared riding my motorcycle and wouldn't agree that it's normal. Most people ride for the exact opposite, actually - relaxation and a feeling of exhilaration or freedom.

Am I constantly aware, cautious...that sort of thing? Sure. Scared? Nope. The day I'm routinely scared riding a motorcycle is the day I hang up my keys.

 

[supernova12034]

So bottom line i guess i just need to be calm and relaxed during the test(and riding in general), and get over my hang ups

 

[conundrum]

It's almost like I have a warped sense of how fast I am going (I'll be doing 20 kph but it might feel like 80 so I'll get nervous or hold back or slow down or panic, panic which results in me choking and changing gears un smoothly which just snowballs to more slower time)

Wait until this inverts and flips around the other way. Number of times I've pulled out to pass a few cars, then merge back in, look at my speedometer and say "wow ok time to slow down" lol.

 

[supernova12034]

Wait until this inverts and flips around the other way. Number of times I've pulled out to pass a few cars, then merge back in, look at my speedometer and say "wow ok time to slow down" lol.

Lol can't wait. Tired of going slow already

Yeah the sense of speed is odd on motorcycles, and since they discourage you from looking down(even at speedometer)
It's hard to gauge how fast your really going

 

[Blackfin]

Lol can't wait. Tired of going slow already

Yeah the sense of speed is odd on motorcycles, and since they discourage you from looking down(even at speedometer)
It's hard to gauge how fast your really going

One thing that can really amplify the feeling of speed on a bike is looking down and focusing (obsessing?) at the road right in front of you or at the lines whizzing by. You'll find, as you gain experience, that the further you look ahead, into a corner or down the road, the more reasonable things will seem.

The safety course probably drilled into you to look through a corner, look where you want to go, not right in front of your front wheel. The same applies when traveling in a straight line at speed; look pretty far ahead -- where you'll be in 10-12 seconds is the sort of distance you should be looking -- looking for "threats" and things that could develop into threats while also scanning side streets, parking lot exits, driveways etc. Things don't seem to happen as fast when you're looking and planning much further ahead.

It won't be long until you just get "a feel" for speed and/or are able to shoot 1/4-sec glances at the speedo. Don't become "target fixated" on stuff like the speedo and maintaining exactly speed 'X'. Focus on looking further afield, far down the road, riding with the flow of traffic etc. It won't be long before that stuff is second nature.

 

[supernova12034]

One thing that can really amplify the feeling of speed on a bike is looking down and focusing (obsessing?) at the road right in front of you or at the lines whizzing by. You'll find, as you gain experience, that the further you look ahead, into a corner or down the road, the more reasonable things will seem.

The safety course probably drilled into you to look through a corner, look where you want to go, not right in front of your front wheel. The same applies when traveling in a straight line at speed; look pretty far ahead -- where you'll be in 10-12 seconds is the sort of distance you should be looking -- looking for "threats" and things that could develop into threats while also scanning side streets, parking lot exits, driveways etc. Things don't seem to happen as fast when you're looking and planning much further ahead.

It won't be long until you just get "a feel" for speed and/or are able to shoot 1/4-sec glances at the speedo. Don't become "target fixated" on stuff like the speedo and maintaining exactly speed 'X'. Focus on looking further afield, far down the road, riding with the flow of traffic etc. It won't be long before that stuff is second nature.

oh ok, gotcha, so looking far ahead/where you want to go, not only keeps you going where you want to go, but also gives you a much more realistic idea of how fast your going?

 

[conundrum]

oh ok, gotcha, so looking far ahead/where you want to go, not only keeps you going where you want to go, but also gives you a much more realistic idea of how fast your going?

I wouldn't say looking ahead gives you a more realistic sense of speed, but that sense just comes with seat time (imo). In my case it didn't take long for 60km/h to seem slow, then 80, then 100, then 100+. If anything wind and lean angle give a better sense of speed overall.

That said, the look through the turn/where you want to go is always true....if there is one thing to remember from the course, it is likely that.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Personally, after I drive/ride something long enough I can gauge my speed mostly by engine sound alone once in top gear. I guess maybe my 20+ years of commercial experience helps that, but I can get in the drivers seat of my semi, take off down the road and nail a speed +/- 5 kph by the sound of the engine alone. I find myself doing the same on my bike now as well.

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