There seems to be a different attitude with buying new / used depending on whether it's a bike, car or boat. The idea of buying a new car doesn't bother me as much as a bike or boat. Motorhomes don't interest me but if depreciation turns you on go shopping.
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Motorcycle industry is in deep trouble and needs help fast
- Thread starter Lightcycle
- Start date
There seems to be a different attitude with buying new / used depending on whether it's a bike, car or boat. The idea of buying a new car doesn't bother me as much as a bike or boat. Motorhomes don't interest me but if depreciation turns you on go shopping.
Well, that's where you went wrong. You used the wrong formula.
That's the formula for figuring out Net Present Value of home valuations for residential mortgages...
Really. It is.
mbroyda
Well-known member
so you made up a statistic to support your failed argument.......win!
blackcamaro
Well-known member
Maybe...but the focus on price and easy to use machines by the manufacturers is one of the reasons I have zero need to go see the dealers. The only segments that in my eyes the manufacturers are developing is the beginner/commuter bikes and then the adventure bikes. I, like a lot of north americans ride for fun. The entry level stuff is boring to me and as long as I keep racing MX I'm not ready for an adventure bike.
2 summers ago I wanted a performance naked bike. A new FZ09 was one of the bikes at the top of my list but by the time I put good/cool suspension on it I was priced into 1 year old Aprilia Tuono territory. Did or could I use all the stuff on the Tuono? Nope. Would I be happy riding a stock FZ09? Probably. I'd have a tough time walking into the garage and getting all excited over it though whereas the Tuono I could just sit and look at it and it made me happy.
I want more cool stuff to come out not more built to a price point. How many less then 500cc Honda CB's does the market really need?
blackcamaro
Well-known member
I do know what your saying just from my view the whole entry level market is over done. What good is it to get people in just to lose them down the line? Most people will do the beginner type bike for a year or two and then it's time to upgrade. Are many people going to buy a cb500 after owning a cb300, unlikely as the gap is too close.
If I'm not the market and I'm a niche maybe that's the problem right there. I'm in my early 30's, have a decent job with disposable income, insurance isn't much of an issue, own a house, ridden for 10 years and my hobbies pretty much begin and end with things that burn gas. I am the guy you want interested in your product. If you simply want to focus on low margin entry level products all the power to you but you lose guys like me that are already the customer base and ready and willing to spend money.
Motorcycles in North America are a recreational product. Make them exciting and cool.
If I'm not the market and I'm a niche maybe that's the problem right there. I'm in my early 30's, have a decent job with disposable income, insurance isn't much of an issue, own a house, ridden for 10 years and my hobbies pretty much begin and end with things that burn gas. I am the guy you want interested in your product. If you simply want to focus on low margin entry level products all the power to you but you lose guys like me that are already the customer base and ready and willing to spend money.
Motorcycles in North America are a recreational product. Make them exciting and cool.
You are niche for lusting after the Tuono ....they almost had you and did have thousands on the FZ9....it was the perfect move up bike for some performance oriented riders and correctly priced finally.
CB500 series are entry bikes here tho not for Europe and Asia.
Where Honda went off track is dropping the lovely move up bike ...the VFR800 for the piggie VFR1200. THEN they brought the VFR800 back and too expensive.
A GSX600 is a decent move up .....but not at $12k and loads of used ones around.
I think Suzuki with the $8500 Vstrom 650x new has the edge for the next stage rider as does Yamaha's FZ6 $6900 new.
Most in your age bracket are concerned with kids and houses and come to the motorcycle market later.
CB500 series are entry bikes here tho not for Europe and Asia.
Where Honda went off track is dropping the lovely move up bike ...the VFR800 for the piggie VFR1200. THEN they brought the VFR800 back and too expensive.
A GSX600 is a decent move up .....but not at $12k and loads of used ones around.
I think Suzuki with the $8500 Vstrom 650x new has the edge for the next stage rider as does Yamaha's FZ6 $6900 new.
Most in your age bracket are concerned with kids and houses and come to the motorcycle market later.
blackcamaro
Well-known member
It wasn't lust, I bought that bike and that's where my money went instead of into a manufacturers hands.
There isn't a bike you mention that I would have any interest in. Although I understand the appeal of them for other people. Everyone is entitled and should have their own wants and view points I'm just sharing mine not trying to say yours is wrong. I'm simply stating I believe the manufacturers are missing out in certain segments.
There isn't a bike you mention that I would have any interest in. Although I understand the appeal of them for other people. Everyone is entitled and should have their own wants and view points I'm just sharing mine not trying to say yours is wrong. I'm simply stating I believe the manufacturers are missing out in certain segments.
No question they cannot cover all situations ( tho the majors seem to try and end up with dogs ) but mid 30s is pretty small demographic for motorcycle purchases.
Pre-kids, post kids are the bulges and an awful lot of urbans are not interested except for non-motorized or light EV.
Pre-kids, post kids are the bulges and an awful lot of urbans are not interested except for non-motorized or light EV.
theassassin
Well-known member
I’ve been in the powersports industry for over 30 years and I’veworked in 3 head offices. I am a licensed technician, former racer and avidsport riding enthusiast. My present position deals with Dealerships acrossCanada and my former position had me living in Vancouver working for an OEM soI have a pretty good understanding of the industry.
There are serious problems for many large businesses rightnow, including powersports OEMs. You have to realize that the world economy is comingoff a 10 year slow down and additional to that, Canada has had it’s own badfortune with the losses in the energy sector a few years ago which hurt theeconomy again, quite badly. Powersportsmanufacturers have lost over 60 percent of their revenues in some cases withinthe last 3 years. I don’t think thatmost of the solution for the powersports industry is going to come from within.I think it will, as always, follow the boom or bust timing of the economy suchas it has during economic slumps like after the early 80s and mid 90s. Manypeople who’ve financially survived the last number of years are looking toregain the ground they lost with their stocks and other things they put on holdwhich are more important than frivolous motorcycles.
I think that somemanufacturers are doing some things right but not all things. I think thatthere are more than enough newbie/small bikes out there to accommodate everyonewho is interested. This is supposed to seed the future for the next crop ofbigger spending riders down the road which is important. I think that for therest of the riders there are also plenty of bike choices for pretty much everybudget.
Other things are certainly not helping like employers beingallowed to hire people on shaky terms like “contract, part time, no benefits”basis, which should only apply to a narrow scope of available labour/services.How can you get a mortgage if you’re employment is not considered permanent?Can you even finance a motorcycle in this position?
I have a bit of a problem with the immigration POLICY inthis country right now when it comes to available employment. I don’t have aproblem with immigrants but I have a problem with the fact that there are notenough jobs available for my fellow countrymen who live here already. I believethat we should have more employment vacancies before we take on more people tolive here. I realize that Canada has a serious lack of population problem butthere has to be better ways to solve it. I always wonder where kids getting outof high school can even get a job these days to work their way through college.I see many entry level jobs being populated by middle aged people who are therefor the benefits offered that they need for their families. I am not trying tosingle out any certain peoples, I am trying to illustrate what I’m seeing.
You have to realizethat our hobby (or profession) is fragile. We likely compose half of a percentof vehicles on the road and our group has huge liability when an accidenthappens. It’s kind of funny in a way......I look at me being a motorcyclist almostlike being at a disadvantage in society. We’re a minority in the transportworld and most of society doesn’t care. Will we be forced off the road byautonomous cars and trucks soon? – no, I don’t think so. I sat in Ottawa at CCMTAmeetings that ensures the integration of all vehicles on our roads, safely. I do believe that we, as a group can do a lotmore to be effective in ensuring that motorcycling can continue to be somewhataffordable and I think that organizations such as the CMA must do more to helporganize this. Why don’t we make all bike show and racing events charge anadditional $1 for entry and give a CMA membership application and a brochure toeach and every one of us so they can lobby the Government and ACTUALLY have animpact for our sport. It doesn’t need to involve everyone on a political levelbut wouldn’t it be cool to get an update newsletter twice a year (emailedmaybe) about what’s been going on that we should be aware of with our sport, orhow we actually got something useful done and made the government listen? This membershipmight help influence or sway more of the irresponsible groups of riders intomaybe thinking twice before making the NEWS and sending the cops on a witchhunt for anything with 2 wheels.
Here’s a few non categorized thoughts:
There are serious problems for many large businesses rightnow, including powersports OEMs. You have to realize that the world economy is comingoff a 10 year slow down and additional to that, Canada has had it’s own badfortune with the losses in the energy sector a few years ago which hurt theeconomy again, quite badly. Powersportsmanufacturers have lost over 60 percent of their revenues in some cases withinthe last 3 years. I don’t think thatmost of the solution for the powersports industry is going to come from within.I think it will, as always, follow the boom or bust timing of the economy suchas it has during economic slumps like after the early 80s and mid 90s. Manypeople who’ve financially survived the last number of years are looking toregain the ground they lost with their stocks and other things they put on holdwhich are more important than frivolous motorcycles.
I think that somemanufacturers are doing some things right but not all things. I think thatthere are more than enough newbie/small bikes out there to accommodate everyonewho is interested. This is supposed to seed the future for the next crop ofbigger spending riders down the road which is important. I think that for therest of the riders there are also plenty of bike choices for pretty much everybudget.
Other things are certainly not helping like employers beingallowed to hire people on shaky terms like “contract, part time, no benefits”basis, which should only apply to a narrow scope of available labour/services.How can you get a mortgage if you’re employment is not considered permanent?Can you even finance a motorcycle in this position?
I have a bit of a problem with the immigration POLICY inthis country right now when it comes to available employment. I don’t have aproblem with immigrants but I have a problem with the fact that there are notenough jobs available for my fellow countrymen who live here already. I believethat we should have more employment vacancies before we take on more people tolive here. I realize that Canada has a serious lack of population problem butthere has to be better ways to solve it. I always wonder where kids getting outof high school can even get a job these days to work their way through college.I see many entry level jobs being populated by middle aged people who are therefor the benefits offered that they need for their families. I am not trying tosingle out any certain peoples, I am trying to illustrate what I’m seeing.
You have to realizethat our hobby (or profession) is fragile. We likely compose half of a percentof vehicles on the road and our group has huge liability when an accidenthappens. It’s kind of funny in a way......I look at me being a motorcyclist almostlike being at a disadvantage in society. We’re a minority in the transportworld and most of society doesn’t care. Will we be forced off the road byautonomous cars and trucks soon? – no, I don’t think so. I sat in Ottawa at CCMTAmeetings that ensures the integration of all vehicles on our roads, safely. I do believe that we, as a group can do a lotmore to be effective in ensuring that motorcycling can continue to be somewhataffordable and I think that organizations such as the CMA must do more to helporganize this. Why don’t we make all bike show and racing events charge anadditional $1 for entry and give a CMA membership application and a brochure toeach and every one of us so they can lobby the Government and ACTUALLY have animpact for our sport. It doesn’t need to involve everyone on a political levelbut wouldn’t it be cool to get an update newsletter twice a year (emailedmaybe) about what’s been going on that we should be aware of with our sport, orhow we actually got something useful done and made the government listen? This membershipmight help influence or sway more of the irresponsible groups of riders intomaybe thinking twice before making the NEWS and sending the cops on a witchhunt for anything with 2 wheels.
Here’s a few non categorized thoughts:
- If you want to ride on the street, you should bemade to wear full protective gear including a full face helmet. If you opt outof this group, you must provide your own health coverage, no OHIP at all foryou. Certain demographics will consider this “discriminatory”, I believe thatif it applies to everyone it is quite “indiscriminate”.
- Manufacturers should provide “demo rides” of alltheir models. Its disappointing that some don’t , then they wonder why they’relosing market share.
- Filtering, sidewalk parking should be legal andif bicycles are allowed to have their own lanes then motorcycles should havetheir own lanes too because we are environmentally friendly etc, etc......andif we don’t qualify under that reasoning then bicyclists should not have theirown lanes either. In fact, I think that bicycles should not be allowed intraffic, they’re a hazard. They should be on the sidewalk where they can dealwith slow moving objects. So there.
Trials
Well-known member
It happened when I fell down the stairs.
If head injuries are still the leading cause of fatality in car accidents and I'm pretty sure they are :/ then helmets should also be mandatory to wear in cars, then it would not be considered discriminatory.
bigpoppa
Well-known member
i think the only place the cb500 isnt an entry level bike is perhaps SE asia. Even in europe its entry level, hence the 47 hp to comply with A2 license system.
There are enough entry level bikes, but now everyone seems to be making cafe racers and hipster bikes. Does honda know something I dont?
There are enough entry level bikes, but now everyone seems to be making cafe racers and hipster bikes. Does honda know something I dont?
bigpoppa
Well-known member
Roadghost
Well-known member
I agree with most of what you're saying, but in the 1980s I took a very close look a the effects of motorcycle safety legislation. In particular, I wanted to know if the sensational claims about motorcycle helmets were true. Several studies done by the American Insurance Institute For Highway Safety, various medical institutes, and the United States National Highway Traffic Safety Association made wild claims about the 30-40-60% effectiveness of motorcycle helmets. There seemed to be no doubt that if you hit your head on something a helmet wearer is profoundly better off. However, that's not what happened in Canada or the United States. For the ten years before the helmet law and the ten years after in Canada there was only a .2/10,000 registrations improvement in the fatality rate. In the United States the effects were perverse.
While there was an initial drop in fatalities in some provinces (Ontario was one of them) over the next 3-5 years the rate bounce right back up to what appears to be a universal average of about 9 fatalities per 10,000 registrations. Compliance with helmet laws in Ontario has always been almost universal, and we know that helmets are effective however, the effects of the law itself have been very small. It appears in the real world other things are happening:
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1068/c010193?journalCode=epca
While "risk compensation" is one theory, if you look at the snowdrift of LiveLeak and YouTube videos of motorcyclists wiping out, it becomes clear motorcycle helmets - regardless of 1/2, 3/4 or full-faced - are mostly becoming detached on impact, that the accidents themselves are far more violent than we might have anticipated, and that almost nothing was going to save the rider from the blunt-force induced concussion upon impact. Helmets themselves are only effective up to about 25mph at impact according to studies and cannot prevent concussions. Using videos may seem anectdotal but they represent accident investigations, just like those used in the famous Hurt Study done in California. Moreover, the full-face helmets make it far more comfortable to travel at very high speeds for long periods of time, inducing a certain amount of "spirited" riding and a false sense of security. Helmets and fancy gear are no substitute for a cautious and restrained attitude. What atmosphere are you creating when you encourage the young and adventurous to ride high-speed GP racer replicas on the public highway? What stigma is created when these risk-takers inevitably kill themselves and it ends up splashed all over the newspapers and internet?
I think attitude is a big factor in accidents and erasing the "Life begins at 160" machismo that permeates sport biking is a big problem that won't go away soon.
I went into the show this week and it seems to me the industry is the same as it has ever been. Barely a handful of the 125-300cc bikes that you had to look very closely for but...plenty of 600-1900cc behemoths. Let's face it, bigger bikes are where the money is so the industry tends to stampede in that direction to their peril. Bigger, heavier bikes are intimidating for new riders, especially women. Where once a 600cc bike was considered a big bike, the pressure to "upmarket" and "upsell" consumers is great and unending. That's costly in insurance, fuel and maintenance. It's not a good long-term strategy for a healthy industry especially since, at least in my case, most fun comes from lithe and lively smaller bikes that are easy to throw around. The biggest selling bikes in the world are the sub 300cc ones.
Simply put, smaller less expensive bikes, less bureaucratic safety legislation and a change in attitude would go a long way to improving motorcycle sales. We've been coming out of a recession for two years now. If there's going to be a rise in sales it will happen this year. But I'm not optimistic. I don't see the prices and I don't see the industry following the grass-roots trends.
J_F
Guest
yeah that was a different place....this was east of Heart Lake Road
this was before there was a 410, it was directly to the east of the Madoc subdivision
just had to hike across Heart Lake road and the entry was there
so technically it was in Bramalea, before it joined Brampton
was an old aggregate quarry that was played out, Armbro I believe
there was a long gravel laneway with a chain across the opening
about a km from the road was a series of pits that had filled with water
and bike trails in the hills between them, was great place to ride and hang out
the area was leveled and pits filled in the 90's, is all residential streets now
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I haven't been on a US trip for a couple of years but bask then it was about 25% less after exchange. Maybe a bit less of a discount now. The further south you went the cheaper the food. Camping could be had for ten bucks a night, here forty. Gas is always cheaper but varies state by state. NY State thruway trip was 1/6th of the 407.
A beer and two appetizers in PA was $7.00
Obviously you could go five star and spend serious coin either side of the border but down there at least you have options.
Are there non-monetary drawbacks? Yes.
J_F
Guest
yes
food and lodging especially
but only in the sticks (which is perfect for a bike trip)
the large cities of course are nutso expensive
Yeah PA and the rural states are cheap - accommodation and food.
East side of the BRP - Latte, cookie and soup $21 in upmarket Virginia
200 miles west in S PA ...Barbecue chicken breast, slaw and apple crumble ( was stuffed ) $3.99
I like eating at Sheetz
https://www.sheetz.com
as the latte is cheap and excellent and lots of choice for on the go rider and you can fuel up.
Usually outdoor seats so no need to unload tank bag etc.
East side of the BRP - Latte, cookie and soup $21 in upmarket Virginia
200 miles west in S PA ...Barbecue chicken breast, slaw and apple crumble ( was stuffed ) $3.99
I like eating at Sheetz
https://www.sheetz.com
as the latte is cheap and excellent and lots of choice for on the go rider and you can fuel up.
Usually outdoor seats so no need to unload tank bag etc.
I travel in the US alot, 25%+ exchange on everything brings travel costs closer to CDN. Its not awful, just part of the process, certainly wouldn't stop me going.
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