Manufacturer's HP arms race

[Blackfin]

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I personally love that bike manufacturers are (or soon will be) turning out these ludicrous machine lately:

Ducati Panigale V4R:

221HP@15250RPM (!) and 165kg (!!!)

MV Agusta Brutale 1000 Serie Oro

205HP and 186kg

Aprilia RSV4 Factory

217HP and 199kg

BMW S1000RR (2019):

207HP and 197kg

I realize only the rich will be able to afford them (and to insure them) but what's the end-game here, I wonder?

Clearly any "gentlemen's agreements" from the past have been tossed. We must be nearing the limits of normally aspirated power production from ~1L street-driven piston engines so will the next step be an H2R-ish supercharger or turbocharger setup?

Or will the limitations of being able to use even the current power levels (TC is already limiting the power put down anyway, the physics of traction, wheelies etc, let alone being able to tap into this on the street) mean chasing more would just be in pursuit of bragging rights? Are we already there?

It's a very cool time to be a motorcycle nut but where are we heading? :thumbup:

 

[J_F]

those Italian bikes make the BMW look like a Suzuki
especially the Brutale.....pure sex on wheels

 

[Brian P]

Probably the speedometer will still not display higher than 299 km/h and they will still be restricted to actual top speed below 299 km/h as per agreement ... until derestricted.

 

[JTR]

Next development, back pack with deployable glider, for when you fly over that left turner at over 300kph

 

[Gnu]

Didn't Chrysler just come out with a 1000 hp 426 hemi crate motor?

 

[Lightcycle]

Clearly any "gentlemen's agreements" from the past have been tossed. We must be nearing the limits of normally aspirated power production from ~1L street-driven piston engines so will the next step be an H2R-ish supercharger or turbocharger setup?

So a couple of things:

As Brian mentioned, the gentlemen's agreement relates to limiting top speed to 300 km/h for street bikes, not horsepower. In the case of the H2R, that's a non-street-legal motorcycle, so it's exempt. The previous iteration of the Ducati 1199R went faster than 300 km/h, but the speedometer blanked when it exceeded that speed, so it's loosely adhering to the agreement. With these batch of new bikes, not sure whether they'll be electronically limited (unlocked by a track-mode only mod) or whether they will go the Ducati screen-blanking route.

Second point is that for the literbike class, supercharging/turbocharging is off the table because of homologation rules for racing. The Superbike rules specify normally aspirated engines. Obviously manufacturers are allowed to produce boosted engines in their lineup, but these won't be eligible for racing. So if they won't be used for racing, why bother boosting a 1000cc engine? Just increase the displacement. It's more safer and reliable for the engine. And you see just that with the GSXR-1300, CBR1100XX, ZX-14.

 

[Blackfin]

So a couple of things:

As Brian mentioned, the gentlemen's agreement relates to limiting top speed to 300 km/h for street bikes, not horsepower.

While technically true, it takes horsepower to achieve higher top speeds than your competitors; a gentleman's agreement to limit top speeds is an agreement to limit power. When the dam broke around 180HP or so and companies started blanking screens or only showing 299kph or whatever, they effectively ripped up that agreement.

In the case of the H2R, that's a non-street-legal motorcycle, so it's exempt.

Perhaps I should have mentioned the H2 instead since it is street-legal (from the factory at least) with some simple tuning it can deliver more than 300HP to the rear wheel. This is relevant since the real point of my post was the HP "war" underway and the capability being built into these machines.

Second point is that for the literbike class, supercharging/turbocharging is off the table because of homologation rules for racing.

Ducati's V4S is 1100cc, the 2019 RSV4 Factory is also 1100. In what class does the Brutale Serie Oro race? These machines aren't adhering to homologation rules; it's Ducati, Aprilia and even MV Agusta taking shots across one another's bows.

The Superbike rules specify normally aspirated engines. Obviously manufacturers are allowed to produce boosted engines in their lineup, but these won't be eligible for racing. So if they won't be used for racing, why bother boosting a 1000cc engine?

Because they can? Again, Kawasaki's street-legal H2 is an obvious example.

If it is a war of street HP and they're pushing litre-engines to what used to be 600cc RR RPM numbers; at some point forced induction will need to be considered to keep HP numbers higher than the competition.

Just increase the displacement. It's more safer and reliable for the engine. And you see just that with the GSXR-1300, CBR1100XX, ZX-14.

That'll get you more torque but probably not as many revs and so modern 998cc machines are outpowering these larger displacement engines.

Anyway, argumentative and off topic in so many ways. I was just wondering where the HP war is headed; didn't feel like picking the flyshit out of the pepper re gentlemen's agreements or homologation rules...

 

[Lightcycle]

While technically true, it takes horsepower to achieve higher top speeds than your competitors; a gentleman's agreement to limit top speeds is an agreement to limit power.

This is just not true. The gentleman's agreement came about in 1999 because manufacturers were able to produce ever-increasing powerful motorcycles capable of reaching very dangerous speeds for public roads. When the Hayabusa broke the 300 km/h barrier, the manufacturers were afraid that the European governments would ban or crack down on these models. So they self-limited the top speed to 300 km/h. Manufacturers have had the technology to make bikes that generate enough power to go over 300 km/h for over 20 years now. And they do. They just electronically limit the top speed in order not to attract government intervention. The gentleman's agreement was *never* about limiting power.

Ducati's V4S is 1100cc, the 2019 RSV4 Factory is also 1100. In what class does the Brutale Serie Oro race? These machines aren't adhering to homologation rules; it's Ducati, Aprilia and even MV Agusta taking shots across one another's bows.

You're just proving my point. The V4S isn't the Superbike homologation. The V4 R is. And it's 1000cc, not 1100c, to comply with the regulations. The RSV4 you mentioned is also not eligible for competition, but its 1000cc brother the RSV4 RR is the homologation version. In both the V4S and the RSV4 factory, the manufacturers have no intention of racing these bikes, so instead of boosting the engines, they did the more reliable and safer alternative: increase the displacement.

 

[Wingboy]

I want to see a NCR version of the V4R.

 

[crankcall]

I love what they are doing, I love performance machinery. However it was said above , getting ins in Ontario may be for the few with wheelbarrows of cash.

 

[Blackfin]

Didn't Chrysler just come out with a 1000 hp 426 hemi crate motor?

Good point. And not just over the counter crate motors like the "Hellephant" but offerings on the dealership floor like their Hellcats and Demons, Chevrolet's 755HP ZR1 Corvette, the 700HP Porsche GT2 RS and so on.

It's like the engineers and product people are seeing the end of ICEs on the horizon and want these machine to go out in a blaze of glory instead of fading away in Prius-like kitchen appliances.

 

[GreyGhost]

Good point. And not just over the counter crate motors like the "Hellephant" but offerings on the dealership floor like their Hellcats and Demons, Chevrolet's 755HP ZR1 Corvette, the 700HP Porsche GT2 RS and so on.

It's like the engineers and product people are seeing the end of ICEs on the horizon and want these machine to go out in a blaze of glory instead of fading away in Prius-like kitchen appliances.

And the more immediate problem of not wanting to lose to Tesla. With the possible exception of Porsche, I don't think any of those manufacturers are currently capable of building a truly fast electric car. Having the new kid blow you out of the water in acceleration is embarrassing. On the street, that is really the only performance metric that can get a decent test. By the time you approach the top speed or handling limits, there is no room for error.

 

[BB722]

Doesn't matter how good electric gets, they will never be able to do the one thing ICE do and that is to produce amazing sound. EV's are a one trick pony they only impress with their initial instant torque which get's repetitive. Picture going through a nice tunnel and not being able to rev out an amazing engine/exhaust.
Also, screw the gentlemen's agreement. Cars are getting absurdly fast now too day by day, motorcycles shouldn't be stopped from pushing the limits.

 

[MacDoc]

And the Lightning has them for lunch.

Lightning LS-218 key specs
Top speed: 218 mph (350 km/h)
Torque: 168 ft-lb (227 Nm)
Power: 200 hp (149 kW)
Weight: 495 lb (224 kg)
Oct 24, 2018

 

[GreyGhost]

Doesn't matter how good electric gets, they will never be able to do the one thing ICE do and that is to produce amazing sound. EV's are a one trick pony they only impress with their initial instant torque which get's repetitive. Picture going through a nice tunnel and not being able to rev out an amazing engine/exhaust.
Also, screw the gentlemen's agreement. Cars are getting absurdly fast now too day by day, motorcycles shouldn't be stopped from pushing the limits.

I agree, but you don't need to make 1000hp to sound good. Hell, a hybrid with a 250cc 4 cylinder at 20K rpm providing the noise while electric provided the thrust would be expensive but fun. With a little smart programming, it could even feel like the ICE was provided the power (although obviously at the expense of some acceleration).

 

[BB722]

And the Lightning has them for lunch.

The H2 is faster, costs less, sounds better, just go to the next gas station when range is done and can be modded to go even faster. Can't do that to an electric now can ya?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJ2IbzGTuo

 

[GreyGhost]

The H2 is faster, costs less, sounds better, just go to the next gas station when range is done and can be modded to go even faster. Can't do that to an electric now can ya?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJ2IbzGTuo

If you had a lightning for the street, swapping sprockets makes sense. No transmission means sub-optimal gearing for launches as it needs the legs up top. Cool video though, both were damned fast.

 

[Brian P]

EV, for the moment, has a substantial tradeoff between range, performance, and weight. If you ride fast, you can't ride far. If you need to go far, you can't go fast. If you have an EV that has both decent range and performance, it's going to be heavy. The situation is getting better.

HarleyDavidson has not, to my knowledge, given range or performance figures for the LiveWire.

 

[D-J]

Doesn't matter how good electric gets, they will never be able to do the one thing ICE do and that is to produce amazing sound. EV's are a one trick pony they only impress with their initial instant torque which get's repetitive. Picture going through a nice tunnel and not being able to rev out an amazing engine/exhaust.

It's funny you should say that. Yes, the sound is intoxicating, but ride most sport/SS bikes or anything on 2 wheels for any length of time and sooner or later you'll find yourself reaching for earplugs.
I wear those orange-coloured earplugs that reduce noise by 33db, I wear a Shoei RF1200 full-face helmet and I still find it too loud (bike exhaust, wind noise) after a long ride.
I can't imaging those Harley guys highway riding straight pipes with an open face skull cap without hearing protection.

 

[Gnu]

Good point. And not just over the counter crate motors like the "Hellephant" but offerings on the dealership floor like their Hellcats and Demons, Chevrolet's 755HP ZR1 Corvette, the 700HP Porsche GT2 RS and so on.

It's like the engineers and product people are seeing the end of ICEs on the horizon and want these machine to go out in a blaze of glory instead of fading away in Prius-like kitchen appliances.

True. Enjoy driving a car or riding a bike now before computer driven vehicles are legislated in as the only road legal vehicles.

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