Have you done it?
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Lane positioning
- Thread starter ~TheCult
- Start date
Have you done it?
It isn't a separate set of laws. It's not illegal, that's what the thread is about. It's just a bad idea for most people.
Look at the training they go through, then how much experience they get riding together. Count 5 or 10 years of riding experience and ask how comfortable they are riding with each other.
Now compare that to "me and buddy always rider together, ever since we got our licences two years ago."
I've seen them bang into each other while they're riding. They just keep going. Unless you've spent some time in close-quarters racing, that's not likely to be the case for the average rider.
BigEvilDoer
Well-known member
Wouldn't the R. v. Bunda case findings make riding side by side HTA172 worthy? Riding too close and not allowing enough space.
I mean if duckwalking a bike past cars is good enough to get the stunting charge thrown at you, side by side should get the same treatment for sure.
I mean if duckwalking a bike past cars is good enough to get the stunting charge thrown at you, side by side should get the same treatment for sure.
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"If all else were equal" then surely crawling past the back end of a stopped vehicle to make a right turn is less hazardous than riding side by side in the same lane at speed.
I don't want someone riding there even at city-traffic speed. In city-traffic conditions, it is perhaps even more so that I don't want someone beside me, because the number of external threats coming at you in city traffic is far greater than in almost any other on-highway condition. I don't buy the "we're trained to do this" argument. I'm trained NOT to do this because of the underlying risk factors. "Training" doesn't magically make those risk factors go away.
And on that matter ... I saw two motorcycle cops ride side-by-side in the same lane on Weston Road just south of Highway 7 today around noon, and they were not OPP so would have been YRP. There was plenty of traffic around. The intersection of Weston and 7 during the daytime tends to be a wee bit hectic.
Message to the cops ... if you want US to behave, then YOU ought to be setting an example. If YOU are going to write US stunt-driving tickets then YOU had better stop doing things that are even more dangerous.
I was in a yellow compact car in the northbound left turn lane, waiting to turn left from Weston onto 7, the two bikes were southbound on Weston, so I had plenty of time to watch the two cops do this.
I don't want someone riding there even at city-traffic speed. In city-traffic conditions, it is perhaps even more so that I don't want someone beside me, because the number of external threats coming at you in city traffic is far greater than in almost any other on-highway condition. I don't buy the "we're trained to do this" argument. I'm trained NOT to do this because of the underlying risk factors. "Training" doesn't magically make those risk factors go away.
And on that matter ... I saw two motorcycle cops ride side-by-side in the same lane on Weston Road just south of Highway 7 today around noon, and they were not OPP so would have been YRP. There was plenty of traffic around. The intersection of Weston and 7 during the daytime tends to be a wee bit hectic.
Message to the cops ... if you want US to behave, then YOU ought to be setting an example. If YOU are going to write US stunt-driving tickets then YOU had better stop doing things that are even more dangerous.
I was in a yellow compact car in the northbound left turn lane, waiting to turn left from Weston onto 7, the two bikes were southbound on Weston, so I had plenty of time to watch the two cops do this.
They weren't reruns when I watched them!
I did learn to drive watching the Duke of Hazzard.
As previously stated it's not a good idea, but it's unlikely to warrant a charge unless it results in a crash. At that point the lane sharing portions of the HTA are most likely to kick in.
Motor officers tend to have a much higher opinion of their ability to ride in close proximity than do other riders but, if you've seen the sort of training that many of them receive, you would understand why. There's plenty of online video of it, and many motorcycle magazines have done write-ups on it.
Motor officers tend to have a much higher opinion of their ability to ride in close proximity than do other riders but, if you've seen the sort of training that many of them receive, you would understand why. There's plenty of online video of it, and many motorcycle magazines have done write-ups on it.
Quite possible they were attending the police riding academy demos that were being hosted by YRP today in that area.
(the YRP bike cops)
I think this is the link
http://m.yorkregion.com/news-story/4760195-police-go-to-motorcycle-school/
Sent from my Nokia Lumia 625 Windows Phone using Tapatalk
(the YRP bike cops)
I think this is the link
http://m.yorkregion.com/news-story/4760195-police-go-to-motorcycle-school/
Sent from my Nokia Lumia 625 Windows Phone using Tapatalk
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AFJ
Well-known member
Interesting to see that none of the police motorcyclists riding in the photos attached to the above article were wearing modern protective motorcycling suits or full coverage helmets.
AFJ
Not to mention, They actually prefer the gear they are issued. Quickly dismount your bike then chase someone for 500 - 750 meters, Then potentially get into a struggle with them, while wearing full riding gear when it is +30C..lol You too would then ride with a form of protective gear, which is better suited to the needs of the job.
As for the riding abreast, especially in motorcade formation is a product of procedure and training it is not a "choice" the officer gets to make it is made for him. As Bike cop said when they are just doing it on regular patrol it is an ego boost, and not illegal. Not sure why people care what others do when they are riding if someone wants to put themselves in a potentially more dangerous situation then let them. Just as there are those who ride squid.
Also as has been properly stated these guys ride in this style form the get go, so yes training doesn't remove other threats, the threat of them "bumping" each other is pretty low and usually they pair up with someone they are comfortable with and have a fair amount of saddle time with.
All the "examples" of 172 are geared towards cars using the same lane. I haven't seen anyone pulled over for riding two abreast. Would I do it? not for a long period of time. But I have a riding friend who has been riding since he was 13, (started with Dirt bikes and ATV's), And I have 35 years riding time. Sometimes we will ride abreast if we are "communicating" via hands signals but generally no more than a km at a time, (NEVER in city traffic normally rural 80K zones). I am confident in his abilities and mine, we ride together frequently and have been doing so for about 5 years. I would feel "secure" riding abreast of him.
As for the riding abreast, especially in motorcade formation is a product of procedure and training it is not a "choice" the officer gets to make it is made for him. As Bike cop said when they are just doing it on regular patrol it is an ego boost, and not illegal. Not sure why people care what others do when they are riding if someone wants to put themselves in a potentially more dangerous situation then let them. Just as there are those who ride squid.
Also as has been properly stated these guys ride in this style form the get go, so yes training doesn't remove other threats, the threat of them "bumping" each other is pretty low and usually they pair up with someone they are comfortable with and have a fair amount of saddle time with.
All the "examples" of 172 are geared towards cars using the same lane. I haven't seen anyone pulled over for riding two abreast. Would I do it? not for a long period of time. But I have a riding friend who has been riding since he was 13, (started with Dirt bikes and ATV's), And I have 35 years riding time. Sometimes we will ride abreast if we are "communicating" via hands signals but generally no more than a km at a time, (NEVER in city traffic normally rural 80K zones). I am confident in his abilities and mine, we ride together frequently and have been doing so for about 5 years. I would feel "secure" riding abreast of him.
That was my first thought.
From that page:
Interesting if applied to riding side by side in the same lane. I would think that this could be considered endangering a person without justification, could it not?
When they do funeral/state/police processions, or even VIP escorts they usually drive side-by-side. It's probably part of their golden helmet training. But lets drink a cold cup of reality here, unless they were racing, popping wheelies or stoppies... you're not going to find an Ontario justice of peace who'll convict them guilty of anything for riding side-by-side.
Again it is NOT illegal, there is nothing in the HTA that specifically prohibits it. It is also part of their training for processions, motorcades etc.
But this is ALL not relevant, you will not find an officer who would write the ticket in the first place. A citizen can NOT lay a charge under the HTA only under the CCofC, (Criminal Code of Canada), can a private citizen bring forth the "laying of an information"
Even IF a cop wrote the ticket to another officer for it, it would be dismissed at first appearance when the officer brought forth a LEGITIMATE defence, which is he was trained to ride in this manner and it is part of his ON DUTY training.
But let's say all systems failed and it went to trial again the officer would have a viable and reasonable defence that he was riding in this fashion while on duty, and it is taught during training as an acceptable practice, (don't forget he would have a union lawyer). I am sure at some point there was a "reason" for training and riding in this manner. Likely long since forgotten as it has merely become and "accepted practice".
The police in the course of their duties are permitted to do many things that we as citizens can't. Like proceed through a red light once making sure it is safe to do so, (with lights activated of course), not required to wear a seat belt. etc etc etc. These are all things that we as society "accept". This doesn't mean they are above the law, or that they are better than other citizens.
But again this is all moot as it is not illegal, but just as many here think it is illegal, (as it has been told to us that it was), it would stand to reason many officers would also "believe it to be illegal" as well. For many years people spread the wives tale that it is illegal to drive a car in Ontario in flip flops, (it isn't illegal but it also like riding abreast it isn't smart. But there is no law, (yet), against stupidity..lol
But this is ALL not relevant, you will not find an officer who would write the ticket in the first place. A citizen can NOT lay a charge under the HTA only under the CCofC, (Criminal Code of Canada), can a private citizen bring forth the "laying of an information"
Even IF a cop wrote the ticket to another officer for it, it would be dismissed at first appearance when the officer brought forth a LEGITIMATE defence, which is he was trained to ride in this manner and it is part of his ON DUTY training.
But let's say all systems failed and it went to trial again the officer would have a viable and reasonable defence that he was riding in this fashion while on duty, and it is taught during training as an acceptable practice, (don't forget he would have a union lawyer). I am sure at some point there was a "reason" for training and riding in this manner. Likely long since forgotten as it has merely become and "accepted practice".
The police in the course of their duties are permitted to do many things that we as citizens can't. Like proceed through a red light once making sure it is safe to do so, (with lights activated of course), not required to wear a seat belt. etc etc etc. These are all things that we as society "accept". This doesn't mean they are above the law, or that they are better than other citizens.
But again this is all moot as it is not illegal, but just as many here think it is illegal, (as it has been told to us that it was), it would stand to reason many officers would also "believe it to be illegal" as well. For many years people spread the wives tale that it is illegal to drive a car in Ontario in flip flops, (it isn't illegal but it also like riding abreast it isn't smart. But there is no law, (yet), against stupidity..lol
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In the Bunda case, the accused was riding past another vehicle in a space that was not designed for three wheel tracks. He also could not reasonably predict the actions of the vehicles he was passing, which he admitted to. In that case it was a series of things that resulted in his conviction, not just the act itself.
Fair explanation, though I firmly disagree with the findings. Thanks. To bad he'll never get the impound fee and lost wages back. But I digress... That's another matter entirely.
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