Land tax | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Land tax

So really what makes the owners whole?
The simplest answer is the homes must be vacant but ownership doesn't change (if owners dont want to sell). Maybe metrolinx rents them from the owners with a good before/after inspection. Rent would have to be well above market rent to allow owners enough after tax dollars to rent something else at market rate. Not sure if there is a legal way to do this though. They are residential properties but metrolinx would want owners to have zero access for many years.
 
What is the fair value of something you don't want to sell?

The regular owners (that live there) will have to deal with double land transfer tax (municipal, provincial) is they buy something else. The cost of moving, the potential minor "mechanical" renos on another like property that may already be done on yours. Other improvements that cost money but don't add market value. etc.

Many of these homes are rental which means displacing renters but for the owners it means capital gains taxes on a forced sale they were not ready timing wise to make, lost rental revenue, and after those losses double land transfer taxes if they want to replace the income property.

What is afterwards the land is sold to a developer, well land value is now based on GFA and $PBSF, which is normally way higher than SFH value. Who gets that money?

So really what makes the owners whole?
When lands are expropriated in Ontario, the owner usually gets the better end of the financial part - taxpayers the short end.

Compensation to owners is at or above the high FMV of the property, plus they get a generous damages settlement that includes selling, relocation, and re-acquisition costs for a similar property. If there are any unique improvements not factored into a FMV, you also get compensated for those so you can add them to your new property (pool, outdoor kitchen, wine cellar, sauna). FMV is before real estate commissions, and there are no commissions. Owners can move out and close anytime in a 2 year window as closings are flexible. The expropriated owners could repurchase a similar home in the same hood and be significantly ahead financially.

They also provide flexible closing dates where owners can move out and close anytime in a 2-year window.

While I feel bad for anyone who is uprooted from their home, some things need to be done for the greater good.

Because settlements are generous, I don't listen to the whining because it's main purpose is to extort more from the public purse.
 
When lands are expropriated in Ontario, the owner usually gets the better end of the financial part - taxpayers the short end.

Compensation to owners is at or above the high FMV of the property, plus they get a generous damages settlement that includes selling, relocation, and re-acquisition costs for a similar property. If there are any unique improvements not factored into a FMV, you also get compensated for those so you can add them to your new property (pool, outdoor kitchen, wine cellar, sauna). FMV is before real estate commissions, and there are no commissions. Owners can move out and close anytime in a 2 year window as closings are flexible. The expropriated owners could repurchase a similar home in the same hood and be significantly ahead financially.

They also provide flexible closing dates where owners can move out and close anytime in a 2-year window.

While I feel bad for anyone who is uprooted from their home, some things need to be done for the greater good.

Because settlements are generous, I don't listen to the whining because it's main purpose is to extort more from the public purse.
In this case, I disagree. When the line is complete there will be a step change in value. Even a generous settlement now will pale in comparison to the increase in value of the property missed. No sane/solvent property owner would dump property right before a major underground transit project is implemented very close by.

When I have seen winners in expropriation, it was developers that happily spent six figures on lawyers for seven to eight figure cheques for a bit of vacant land (normally the cheque for the expropriated piece vastly exceeded the price they paid for the entire parcel). Most homeowners get bent over. It's a necessary process but not nearly as rosy as your picture in my experience.

EDIT:
Especially in this case. It's one thing if they expropriate and tear down for construction access or new infrastructure, that has solid justification and something has to go to make space so they pick the least-worst option (hopefully). This seems to be a grey area where they are worried they may damage something so they are forcing pre-emptive sale to them? That seems weak. If expropriation was such a bad deal for taxpayers as you state, it would be cheaper to repair damage if it occurs.
 
Last edited:
Another rub for these people. You have to be out by Nov 25 (so not "two years"), maybe one year and a bit if they get the offers all done and closed by November (it is a government organization...). Now there are potentially (up to) 25 households looking to buy in the area, all at once. The houses on Pape are some of the lower cost ones in the area and a quick look on MLS there are about 10 homes for sale in the overall area, and not a lot of sold turnover in the last year.... So what does that do to the local market they need to buy into, lots of competition?

Sure you can look for a year, as rates drop the market will likely go up so your 2024 dollars are potentially not so great in 2025. IMO double market value really should be the case... It is not their fault.
 
. IMO double market value really should be the case... It is not their fault.
While that annoys me as a taxpayer, I agree that is closer to the number that is reasonable if you are forcing people out. That may also alter the economics of the plan so they choose to do repairs or some other path instead of buying them. When they sell after construction, double current value may be close. That leaves the lost opportunity cost with MX as the money was tied up and got deflated but otherwise they recovered most of the money spent on acquisition.

EDIT:
During covid when realtors and buyers were door knocking trying to find houses, we worked out the number we would need to consider moving. We like our house and don't want to move. That means fair market value is a complete non-starter. If you want me to move, you need to pay a significant premium to make it worth my effort and life upheaval. For us anything less than a 50% premium wasn't even worth considering as you are trying to find new housing in a hot market. An offer of 100% over FMV and we would sign and figure it out after. That leaves me financial power to figure things out. Obviously nobody was willing to offer that much and I'm ok with that. I don't want to move.
 
Last edited:
In this case, I disagree. When the line is complete there will be a step change in value. Even a generous settlement now will pale in comparison to the increase in value of the property missed. No sane/solvent property owner would dump property right before a major underground transit project is implemented very close by.

When I have seen winners in expropriation, it was developers that happily spent six figures on lawyers for seven to eight figure cheques for a bit of vacant land (normally the cheque for the expropriated piece vastly exceeded the price they paid for the entire parcel). Most homeowners get bent over. It's a necessary process but not nearly as rosy as your picture in my experience.
Many farmers who lost lands to the Pickering Airport in the 70s had a 10-year first right to repurchase their lands if they became available. I know 1 farmer who repurchased his farm for 1/2 what they were paid at the time of expropriation. Most expropriation agreements include some sort of timed repurchase right.

In Ontario, expropriation is only used for civic projects and in rare cases where lands have become unsuitable for habitation. Developer's do not have access to expropriations for their projects or gains.

You might be confusing Ontario Expropriations with the Eminent Domain doctrine common in the USA. Under Eminent Domain, a developer can petition the local gov't to expropriate private lands for the greater good of the people. For example, GreyLandCo could ask for a street of rough inner-city properties to redevelop into a modern housing project. They may argue crime reduction, removal of urban blight, and improved housing as benefits to the community. Local gov weighs the harm to the expropriated owners/residents against the benefits to the community then makes a call. Legally that could happen in Ontario, practically it would be impossible.

Here's all the Toronto expropriations since 2015.
 
Another rub for these people. You have to be out by Nov 25 (so not "two years"), maybe one year and a bit if they get the offers all done and closed by November (it is a government organization...). Now there are potentially (up to) 25 households looking to buy in the area, all at once. The houses on Pape are some of the lower cost ones in the area and a quick look on MLS there are about 10 homes for sale in the overall area, and not a lot of sold turnover in the last year.... So what does that do to the local market they need to buy into, lots of competition?

Sure you can look for a year, as rates drop the market will likely go up so your 2024 dollars are potentially not so great in 2025. IMO double market value really should be the case... It is not their fault.
The law says 4 mos or less. I believe those property owners were served notice in Jan 2020.

 
You might be confusing Ontario Expropriations with the Eminent Domain doctrine common in the USA. Under Eminent Domain, a developer can petition the local gov't to expropriate private lands for the greater good of the people. For example, GreyLandCo could ask for a street of rough inner-city properties to redevelop into a modern housing project. They may argue crime reduction, removal of urban blight, and improved housing as benefits to the community. Local gov weighs the harm to the expropriated owners/residents against the benefits to the community then makes a call. Legally that could happen in Ontario, practically it would be impossible.

Here's all the Toronto expropriations since 2015.
I know of situations where developer land was expropriated and big cheques cut (with NDA's all around).

Here's one happening right now. Bradford grabbed 3.5 hectares from a 40 hectare field for a road realignment. Outside of urban boundaries (although that too was part of the game being played by the town to minimize cost of project). They have been arguing about it since 2017. Town wants to pay $2.59M, developer wants a cheque for $4.97M. Headed to OLT shortly.


As for right to buyback, MX says they can buy it back in two years at the new fair market value (that MX determines again). WTF. If MX really wants to take ownership for two years, the current owner should be able to buy it back by handing MX a cheque for the FMV of the house at the time they sold it minus the LTT they have to pay, moving expenses, etc. That would be roughly a zero sum game for the current owners. Still a pain in the ass but not financially devastating.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Without going into details, I've been able to some some expropriation documentation and frankly...FMV is considered, and then the home owner gets ++++++. The main reason being is that it's simpler, easier, and less bad reputation for the gov't to pay people out handsomely.

Now, having said that...no home owner accepts the first offer, and we always have people yelling for more. One guy didn't like his offer, so we took it to 2 independent appraisers, and he was able to bring his own appraisal as well and we'd work off the average of the 3.

Each of the 3 came back about 100-200k LESS than what the owner was being offered...but he didn't care...he wanted 300k more than the offer.

I don't know the final bill, but they upped the offer just to shut him up...and he moved out within 2 weeks.

In addition, there is a team of lawyers that specializes in maximizing your offer from the gov't in these types of cases. The lawyers know the projects, know where the impacts are, and reach out to every home owner in the area to 'fight for their benefit' and are strictly there to maximize the amount of money they can extract from the govt.

Typically the owner gets less than just going direct with the gov't, as the lawyer takes a huge cut. But it's their business, and it is the owner's right to have their own independent legal counsel.

EDIT: The funnier / entertaining stories are the people that cry 'the gov't offered me $1 for my property!'

No...they didn't offer you $1. They offered you $1,000,000 (or whatever) and as the property owner (in this case a mechanical shop for car repairs) is responsible for the soil underneath their land...you get $1....and then whatever it costs to remove the contaminated soil from the property....so if it's 500k...you get 500k. If it's 100k, you get 900k.

Property owner is responsible for contamination of their soils, and the money required to make the soil right.
 
I know of situations where developer land was expropriated and big cheques cut (with NDA's all around).

Here's one happening right now. Bradford grabbed 3.5 hectares from a 40 hectare field for a road realignment. Outside of urban boundaries (although that too was part of the game being played by the town to minimize cost of project). They have been arguing about it since 2017. Town wants to pay $2.59M, developer wants a cheque for $4.97M. Headed to OLT shortly.
This is a case where the parties need arbitration to solve FMV. Don't know how that land is zoned, but inside Bradford land is $500K-$1m/acre -- the land in question is 8.5 acres, the seller wants $555K/acre. doesn't seem out of line to me. Being a developer is of no advantage or consequence, the same process would play out for a homeowner or farmer -- leave nothing on the table.

As for right to buyback, MX says they can buy it back in two years at the new fair market value (that MX determines again). WTF. If MX really wants to take ownership for two years, the current owner should be able to buy it back by handing MX a cheque for the FMV of the house at the time they sold it minus the LTT they have to pay, moving expenses, etc. That would be roughly a zero sum game for the current owners. Still a pain in the ass but not financially devastating.
FMV is determined independently of the parties in an Expropriation. Buyback clauses usually favor the old owner -- they don't repay damages or improvement awards gained in the initial sale - they get those back free along with another allowance for legal, LTT and moving expenses. A wild-ass increase in value is unlikely as the benefit of being on a rail line is already baked into the prices of these places. The flipside may be more likely -- the properties become less desirable.

Homeowner noise is part of the process of extracting more from the public purse. They are touching all the bases in the Expropriations Act as they angle for allowances for improvements to my house, emotional damage, and damage to a part-time tarot reading business...
 
Without going into details, I've been able to some some expropriation documentation and frankly...FMV is considered, and then the home owner gets ++++++. The main reason being is that it's simpler, easier, and less bad reputation for the gov't to pay people out handsomely.

Now, having said that...no home owner accepts the first offer, and we always have people yelling for more. One guy didn't like his offer, so we took it to 2 independent appraisers, and he was able to bring his own appraisal as well and we'd work off the average of the 3.

Each of the 3 came back about 100-200k LESS than what the owner was being offered...but he didn't care...he wanted 300k more than the offer.

I don't know the final bill, but they upped the offer just to shut him up...and he moved out within 2 weeks.

In addition, there is a team of lawyers that specializes in maximizing your offer from the gov't in these types of cases. The lawyers know the projects, know where the impacts are, and reach out to every home owner in the area to 'fight for their benefit' and are strictly there to maximize the amount of money they can extract from the govt.

Typically the owner gets less than just going direct with the gov't, as the lawyer takes a huge cut. But it's their business, and it is the owner's right to have their own independent legal counsel.
That all makes sense if they are knocking down your house. In this case, it's a kick in the nuts as there is a good chance your house is resold in 2-3 years in the same condition it is now for a lot more than ++++++. Still seems strange that they are expropriating for possible damage in the future.
 
That all makes sense if they are knocking down your house. In this case, it's a kick in the nuts as there is a good chance your house is resold in 2-3 years in the same condition it is now for a lot more than ++++++. Still seems strange that they are expropriating for possible damage in the future.
It makes perfect sense. Govt doesn’t want to be a landlord when they don’t have to. Their payments for rent / displacement could be 2 years…when’s the last time you saw a major project finish on time?

2 years!? Ha!
 
It makes perfect sense. Govt doesn’t want to be a landlord when they don’t have to. Their payments for rent / displacement could be 2 years…when’s the last time you saw a major project finish on time?

2 years!? Ha!
I wonder if they would consider a good repurchase clause in the contract. You can have my house for $x + expenses. I get first right of refusal when you decide to sell for $x-100k. $x invested covers my rent for the length of the project (no matter how long it is). It looks like the houses are about $1.5M. Rent is about $3k. The math almost works (depending on +++++, return on investment and tax rate). The real win (or rather avoidance of kick in the nuts) for the homeowner comes when they buy it back at the end and get a 2.5M house for 1.4.
 
I wonder if they would consider a good repurchase clause in the contract. You can have my house for $x + expenses. I get first right of refusal when you decide to sell for $x-100k. $x invested covers my rent for the length of the project (no matter how long it is). It looks like the houses are about $1.5M. Rent is about $3k. The math almost works (depending on +++++, return on investment and tax rate). The real win (or rather avoidance of kick in the nuts) for the homeowner comes when they buy it back at the end and get a 2.5M house for 1.4.
Agreed.

In my experience…the people crying boo to the papers are doing nothing more than looking for sympathy and using media to push to get what they want. Nothing more.

I know I would!
 
I wonder if they would consider a good repurchase clause in the contract. You can have my house for $x + expenses. I get first right of refusal when you decide to sell for $x-100k. $x invested covers my rent for the length of the project (no matter how long it is). It looks like the houses are about $1.5M. Rent is about $3k. The math almost works (depending on +++++, return on investment and tax rate). The real win (or rather avoidance of kick in the nuts) for the homeowner comes when they buy it back at the end and get a 2.5M house for 1.4.
I doubt the houses will be feasible after a couple of years being boarded up/vacant, even if construction does zero damage... Assuming no squatters try to move in and trash the place. Assuming no tweakers steal all the copper trashing the place. Two+ years of demolition by neglect with respect to weather and rodent penetration will be enough to potentially destroy the home.

Flippers may still be all over them, I doubt most of the previous owners will want what is left.
 
Last edited:
That all makes sense if they are knocking down your house. In this case, it's a kick in the nuts as there is a good chance your house is resold in 2-3 years in the same condition it is now for a lot more than ++++++. Still seems strange that they are expropriating for possible damage in the future.
I think they are expropriating to mitigate cost and risk during construction. The deal for an expropriated owner to get their house back if it's still standing will undoubtedly be better than if you or I wanted the place.
 
I doubt the houses will be feasible after a couple of years being boarded up/vacant, even if construction does zero damage... Assuming no squatters try to move in and trash the place. Assuming no tweakers steal all the copper trashing the place. Two+ years of demolition by neglect with respect to weather and rodent penetration will be enough to potentially destroy the home.

Flippers may still be all over them, I doubt most of the previous owners will want what is left.
Remember... its also Riverdale, not Rosedale.

1724358305726.png
 
This is a case where the parties need arbitration to solve FMV. Don't know how that land is zoned, but inside Bradford land is $500K-$1m/acre -- the land in question is 8.5 acres, the seller wants $555K/acre. doesn't seem out of line to me. Being a developer is of no advantage or consequence, the same process would play out for a homeowner or farmer -- leave nothing on the table.

FMV is determined independently of the parties in an Expropriation. Buyback clauses usually favor the old owner -- they don't repay damages or improvement awards gained in the initial sale - they get those back free along with another allowance for legal, LTT and moving expenses. A wild-ass increase in value is unlikely as the benefit of being on a rail line is already baked into the prices of these places. The flipside may be more likely -- the properties become less desirable.

Homeowner noise is part of the process of extracting more from the public purse. They are touching all the bases in the Expropriations Act as they angle for allowances for improvements to my house, emotional damage, and damage to a part-time tarot reading business...
Here are real numbers from metrolinx expropriation. Market value (determined by metrolinx on a date determined by metrolinx) plus 5% inconvenience bonus. No moving expenses, no ltt on new house, etc. A swift kick in the balls.

 

Back
Top Bottom