KTM's in trouble ? | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

KTM's in trouble ?

Not just Polaris as BRP and every other "Toy" manufacturer is there as well. BRP and Polaris though also have sleds as part of their lineup and with last winter's poor conditions it's just another stress on sales. I'll admit this might be my last winter on sleds as well if we don't get much snow.
BRP just sold off a bunch of their boat business.
I'm guessing that much like RVs, people that bought during Covid are having second thoughts and flooding the used market.
 
Tesla +11% after-hours after blowout quarter.

Don't quit your day job ;)

The musk reality distortion field continues to be set to 11.

Its day of reckoning is coming. 😉
 
With Apple it was Steve Jobs distortion field.....and the demise predictions did not work out so well. Just sayin

I think there are a lot of very big differences between Apple and Tesla so far as valuations vs sales, it’s CEO, and lots of other things, but it’s something that could probably be bantered back-and-forth endlessly and doesn’t really fit in this thread.
 
Everything you say about debt to buy brands, pricing and multiple models with different colour plastic is very true, but I think you're underestimating the huge impact that perceived quality has on buyers, especially when you're trying to market yourself as a prestige European brand. Bikes aren't cars, and people aren't as willing to put up with sh*te reliability for them as as they are in leasing a Beemer for three years and then dropping it like a hot potato before the repair bills start adding up. Also, many of the bikes you list above are dirt-oriented, which is actually where KTM is doing best. Where there has been a total crater in sales is apparently in the street bikes, which are way, way down. And that's where the poor quality perception is worst.

In my experience, the perception of KTM quality has plummeted. Whether this is based on hard data or Facebook comments ultimately doesn't matter. If you said KTM to someone ten years ago, they would likely have associated high performance for the money and fun. Now, I guarantee it'll be about poor reliability and dismissive customer care..

Way, way back in the early '80s, Honda faced the same reputation, so they went well above and beyond to build stone reliable bikes to combat that reputation head on. When Triumph was resurrected, they knew the brand reputation was for poor reliability, so the first decade or so worth of bikes were built like hammers, heavy but indestructible, even if it meant they lagged a bit in performance. In both cases, the companies understood that it was critical to go completely the other way to squish that rep, otherwise people would look at even a normal fault and go, "Aha! I knew those bikes were crap!"

KTM hasn't done any of that, and their PR in regards to perceived failings has been abysmal. Despite admitting cam issues, in downplaying it they still gave the impression that they think the unhappy owners are a bunch of whiners. None of this will achieve what Honda and Triumph achieved by going so far the other way that nobody could ever claim the bikes were poorly built. It only amplifies the perception people already have.

Add the premium pricing you note, and buyers are walking away. Why should anyone pay extra for a bike that very well could be unreliable, and from a company that appears to hold their customers in disdain? Then add the credit crunch, and now they're in real trouble. Would it have been cheaper to go above and beyond a few years ago to address their quality perception than it is to dump a bunch of unwanted bikes on the market at cut rates now? I think it would be. Would it have solved all the issues you list above? Definitely not, but it would have helped a lot.
Good point.

After KTM redid the fairing on the 890 and released the Husky 901 I considered getting rid of my 1090 and going that route. The cam issue definitely was a major part of my hesitation.

While their off road and dual sports set the benchmark for performance, and are quite sorted and reliable by all accounts I think the color-based branding is diluting the market just competing with themselves in the end.
 
Good point.

After KTM redid the fairing on the 890 and released the Husky 901 I considered getting rid of my 1090 and going that route. The cam issue definitely was a major part of my hesitation.

While their off road and dual sports set the benchmark for performance, and are quite sorted and reliable by all accounts I think the color-based branding is diluting the market just competing with themselves in the end.
Like gm, colour branding ends in tears and a collapse. The only question is how long it takes. If you want to keep multiple brands alive, they need different products. If you really want to cater to someone with the same colour stable, sell body kits in different colours but only make/ship/stock one version of bike. Cuts costs hugely.
 
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Having been around auto and high tech for decades, having worked in product dev with and for large European companies I have learned some things.

Winning on performance and specs are all that counts in product design. Dependability engineering doesn’t happen in any meaningful way, they let customers do the product prooving. Reliance on third party systems is big, vertical manufacturing less so.
Maybe they're all that counts in product design, but Toyota is the world's largest car manufacturer (by volume) largely on the back of their reputation for value, quality and reliability, and the same can be said for Honda in the motorcycle world. Perceived quality does matter for sales, and reliability plays into that in a major way. You can build a crap product and sell it for less (Stellantis anything), or you can sell past unreliable based on prestige and performance (BMW cars), but KTM isn't cheaper, nor are they prestigious enough that people don't care about reliability.

Aprilia is another example. Fair or not, their V4 has a reputation for dropping valves (it was absolutely an issue in early V4's but has long since been sorted out). This combined with their limited dealer network and Piaggio's less than stellar rep for warranty coverage and parts availability have definitely affected their sales, especially in North America. Ducati, on the other hand, has enough brand cachet that people will look past perceived quality issues, similar to BMW cars.

Separately, the other factor for the Euro makers is they subcontract so much of their parts manufacture to Asia, which makes supply chain management a much bigger piece of the puzzle. In the case of KTM's cam issue, they're laying the blame on China-produced finger followers as being the wrong hardness (possibly too hard and/or abrasive), too narrow, and with too much dimensional tolerance. What folks assumed to be soft cams now appears to be incompatible followers wearing the cams prematurely. The solution has been to widen the followers, alter the metal composition (possibly softening, though they haven't confirmed that), and tighten up tolerances. All of this is external, and the tone of the interview I heard with the KTM PR guy is that they were implying this wasn't a KTM issue, despite them contracting with that supplier, providing the design and being responsible for QA/QC.

(They also have reported issues with oil ducts being plugged with milling debris, which is 100% a KTM issue from the factory in Austria, but have unsurprisingly downplayed that as a factor, despite also installing replaceable filters for those ducts.)

My understanding is the Japanese factories produce a much larger percentage of the components in-house, which gives them far more control over QA/QC and makes them much less vulnerable to a bad supplier. They also, stereotypically, seem to have a different culture about conservatism around development of new products, taking more time to get things to market and seemingly dialling back performance to gain reliability.

BRP just sold off a bunch of their boat business.
I'm guessing that much like RVs, people that bought during Covid are having second thoughts and flooding the used market.
I can't speak for boats, but as someone who has been casually paying attention to the RV market as we rent trailers but are always thinking about buying (makes zero financial sense, but is definitely more convenient), my sense is the issues in that market are less about used models flooding sales and more about people not buying the new ones at anywhere near the volumes still being produced. In other words, it's not that new buyers are buying used, it's that new buyers have disappeared. Part of that may be the ridiculous financing people sign up for with RV's where they're so far underwater pretty much permanently (owe too much to start, value plummets as it ages and it's worth very little later despite still owing a lot), so they bite the bullet and hang on rather than sell. We went to a lot where they wanted us to sign up for 15 year financing. It's not a bloody house.

In the corner we're looking at (lower midrange, Azdel, <5000 lbs), I see very few used examples for sale, but I see stacks of '22, '23 and '24 models clogging up dealer lots. You could get some very good deals this fall by picking up a '24 as the dealers scramble to make room for '25s coming in.

Good point.

After KTM redid the fairing on the 890 and released the Husky 901 I considered getting rid of my 1090 and going that route. The cam issue definitely was a major part of my hesitation.

While their off road and dual sports set the benchmark for performance, and are quite sorted and reliable by all accounts I think the color-based branding is diluting the market just competing with themselves in the end.
Absolutely it is. As @GreyGhost notes, it bears a lot of parallels to GM in the car world. Another parallel is GM added to their mess by building extremely unreliable vehicles for a number of years, despite often charging a premium (see GM trucks from the '90s and '00s). Unusually for my lifetime, they seem to have completely reversed course and if JD Power and CR are to be believed, now make much more reliable vehicles right near the top of manufacturer averages. I still struggle to think of a GM as a quality product after a lifetime of considering them basically junk, though, despite the data seeming to show otherwise.
 
While their off road and dual sports set the benchmark for performance, and are quite sorted and reliable by all accounts I think the color-based branding is diluting the market just competing with themselves in the end.
KTM, Husqvarna, GasGas - other than graphics, spot the differences from 10 feet away - I can't ?
I know they are shooting for different segments of the market but it seems like they are just shooting themselves in the foot.
 
KTM, Husqvarna, GasGas - other than graphics, spot the differences from 10 feet away - I can't ?
I know they are shooting for different segments of the market but it seems like they are just shooting themselves in the foot.
Are those segments, "I like orange/Austria," "I like yellow/Sweden," and, "I like red/Spain"?

Heck, they even do it with their MotoGP bikes. Same bike, different logo. Speaking of which, rumours are that KTM is only second to Ducati in money spent in the series, wonder if that will dry up shortly. It's hard to see the cost benefit considering the lack of success...
 
Maybe they're all that counts in product design, but Toyota is the world's largest car manufacturer (by volume) largely on the back of their reputation for value, quality and reliability, and the same can be said for Honda in the motorcycle world. Perceived quality does matter for sales, and reliability plays into that in a major way. You can build a crap product and sell it for less (Stellantis anything), or you can sell past unreliable based on prestige and performance (BMW cars), but KTM isn't cheaper, nor are they prestigious enough that people don't care about reliability.

Aprilia is another example. Fair or not, their V4 has a reputation for dropping valves (it was absolutely an issue in early V4's but has long since been sorted out). This combined with their limited dealer network and Piaggio's less than stellar rep for warranty coverage and parts availability have definitely affected their sales, especially in North America. Ducati, on the other hand, has enough brand cachet that people will look past perceived quality issues, similar to BMW cars.

Separately, the other factor for the Euro makers is they subcontract so much of their parts manufacture to Asia, which makes supply chain management a much bigger piece of the puzzle. In the case of KTM's cam issue, they're laying the blame on China-produced finger followers as being the wrong hardness (possibly too hard and/or abrasive), too narrow, and with too much dimensional tolerance. What folks assumed to be soft cams now appears to be incompatible followers wearing the cams prematurely. The solution has been to widen the followers, alter the metal composition (possibly softening, though they haven't confirmed that), and tighten up tolerances. All of this is external, and the tone of the interview I heard with the KTM PR guy is that they were implying this wasn't a KTM issue, despite them contracting with that supplier, providing the design and being responsible for QA/QC.

(They also have reported issues with oil ducts being plugged with milling debris, which is 100% a KTM issue from the factory in Austria, but have unsurprisingly downplayed that as a factor, despite also installing replaceable filters for those ducts.)

My understanding is the Japanese factories produce a much larger percentage of the components in-house, which gives them far more control over QA/QC and makes them much less vulnerable to a bad supplier. They also, stereotypically, seem to have a different culture about conservatism around development of new products, taking more time to get things to market and seemingly dialling back performance to gain reliability.


I can't speak for boats, but as someone who has been casually paying attention to the RV market as we rent trailers but are always thinking about buying (makes zero financial sense, but is definitely more convenient), my sense is the issues in that market are less about used models flooding sales and more about people not buying the new ones at anywhere near the volumes still being produced. In other words, it's not that new buyers are buying used, it's that new buyers have disappeared. Part of that may be the ridiculous financing people sign up for with RV's where they're so far underwater pretty much permanently (owe too much to start, value plummets as it ages and it's worth very little later despite still owing a lot), so they bite the bullet and hang on rather than sell. We went to a lot where they wanted us to sign up for 15 year financing. It's not a bloody house.

In the corner we're looking at (lower midrange, Azdel, <5000 lbs), I see very few used examples for sale, but I see stacks of '22, '23 and '24 models clogging up dealer lots. You could get some very good deals this fall by picking up a '24 as the dealers scramble to make room for '25s coming in.


Absolutely it is. As @GreyGhost notes, it bears a lot of parallels to GM in the car world. Another parallel is GM added to their mess by building extremely unreliable vehicles for a number of years, despite often charging a premium (see GM trucks from the '90s and '00s). Unusually for my lifetime, they seem to have completely reversed course and if JD Power and CR are to be believed, now make much more reliable vehicles right near the top of manufacturer averages. I still struggle to think of a GM as a quality product after a lifetime of considering them basically junk, though, despite the data seeming to show otherwise.
Your example of the RV's has some merit for motorcycles in my opinion.

Along those lines recently I read that John Deere is having some trouble. Poor sales leading to laying workers off, closing factories and so on. For those unaware, tractors are extremely expensive. An open station (50 - 75hp) 4 wheel drive tractor with a loader is around $50k USD, with the bigger non-articulated row crop tractors that you see this time of year costing around $250K USD. Articulated ones break $500K.

Tractors last a long time and can be perfectly usable for many decades, provided that you can get parts. Somebody at John Deere decided that this was maybe cutting into their new tractor sales so they decided to discontinue making parts for quite a few of their older models in hopes of encouraging customers to get a newer one.

Regarding the inflated prices that all the new tech is driving, it's become a bit of a deal breaker for me. Is my 1090 that much inferior to the new 1390 that they've introduced with the emergency braking, etc., not to mention the auto transmission? Not to me. Sure, I can tell there are performance advantages, the 1390 will be much faster, etc., etc., etc. but I'm not inclined IN THE LEAST to upgrade - particularly to buy new.

For me it goes for all bikes. I toy with the idea of buying a Yamaha FJR, but why buy a new one for $20K when I can get a relatively low mileage, fairly recent model for below $10K and even less if buying pre 2020?

Modern motorcycles, like modern RV's and tractors are durable, long lasting products. At some point the quantity of good used units will take sales away from new models, especially if the improvements to the new model is only incremental.
 
While their off road and dual sports set the benchmark for performance, and are quite sorted and reliable by all accounts I think the color-based branding is diluting the market just competing with themselves in the end.

Not just that, but it's also removing variety and choice in the marketplace.

Sure there are riders who can't see past the badging and plastics and are okay with platform sharing, but there are others who really value different engine configurations, different chassis, suspension, and all the other things that make a noticeable difference when you're actually riding the motorcycle, instead of polishing it up on the driveway.
 
I think there are a lot of very big differences between Apple and Tesla so far as valuations vs sales, it’s CEO, and lots of other things, but it’s something that could probably be bantered back-and-forth endlessly and doesn’t really fit in this thread.
Indeed. You have to look big picture at Tesla and not just at car stuff. Energy storage is a huge reason their stock has bounced back and that's just one thing. Just saying. I'm not for/against Tesla but I am "for" making money on their stock.
 
Indeed. You have to look big picture at Tesla and not just at car stuff. Energy storage is a huge reason their stock has bounced back and that's just one thing. Just saying. I'm not for/against Tesla but I am "for" making money on their stock.
And cyber trucks are starting to ship!
 

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