KTM sales surpasses Harley Davidson

[HarleyHare]

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And now that a few days have passed, and predictably this post is hopelessly off-topic, I'll add a wild comment for heck of it...

Taking an Indian to the HD dealer is a bit like asking the Pepsi rep if he'd like a rum and Coke. He might, but he's never going to let anybody on the patio see him drink it.

Reminds me of when J&R Cycles used to be a new bike dealer selling several brands and we picked up my son's first new bike, a Honda CBR 600. After the paperwork was done they asked me to load the bike into my truck at the back of the building and made no sense since both bike and truck were at the front. They explained it was a Triumph Demo Day and didn't want Triumph upset at seeing a competing product sold that day. The curse of Political Correctness, was born that day.

 

[DJM]

What was that place that used to be on Dundas near 427 that carried multi-lines? Long gone now as is that selling model. Spent a few Saturdays in there sitting on bikes like RG500’s and Interceptors.

 

[Lightcycle]

CycleWorld West.

 

[crankcall]

There are KTM dirt bike dealers that don't even have access to selling KTM street bikes :/ they might want to sort that out before they look to a third party dealership network.

There are many industries where you are not a full line retailer, happens all the time. You get access to product xxx but not yyy. Everybodies matrix is different.

 

[Trials]

There are many industries where you are not a full line retailer, happens all the time. You get access to product xxx but not yyy. Everybodies matrix is different.

Understand that if the supplier was honda and the cycle shop didn't want to showroom weed whips, but we are talking motorcycles and motorcycles. For a KTM dirt dealer to not have access to selling RC390's is pathetic.
If they had them in Perth I would test ride one and probably be tempted to buy one, from my local dealer :/ what am I suppose to do drive another several hours to deal with freakin Ottawa? That ain't ever happening, Woody can out ride and out wrench those guys to begin with.

I responded to an R-E bike dealership advertisement when the new distributor first started looking for dealers in Canada, you know what they said! We are only going to sign with dealers that already handle another motorcycle line. <- omg r-u-stupid? ... You don't want somebody exclusively dedicated to selling and supporting your product? Good luck with that.

 

[Mad Mike]

Agreed. Look what BMW did with Husqvarna. Threw away the Italian design, came up with their own engine which sucked and then sold the name almost immediately.

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Buell, Husq, MV, Ducati were all money losing bit players in the international MC market, none were acquired for anything more than the cache in their brands. KTM is a going concern with real value, big difference.

I should add Ducati has been nicely turned around under German control.

 

[Mad Mike]

I don't think a KTM and HD merger makes sense, either. KTM is on an up trend and has a good product mix. HD is on the way down and it remains to be seen whether their planned entrance into other market segments will succeed. It's unclear if dealers will be supportive, or just push the same old product that they know how to sell. Indian seems to be on an up trend, and that could be the undoing of HD. KTM stands nothing to gain by such a merger, so why should they bother.

KTM would have a lot to gain. You can sell a lot of motorcycles in Asia -- but you make $10/bike. KTM is a bit player in North America, they sell 1 bike for every 10 sold by Honda. Another issue is their growth is in entry level and dirt bike segments -- lower margin & high volume - a tough game in the MC market.

Keep an eye on KTM, they have a great opportunity if they can keep build quality and increase sales in the high end. Money is betting against them, riders for them -- lets see how it plays out.

 

[crankcall]

If they had them in Perth I would test ride one and probably be tempted to buy one, from my local dealer :/ what am I suppose to do drive another several hours to deal with freakin Ottawa? That ain't ever happening, Woody can out ride and out wrench those guys to begin with.

I responded to an R-E bike dealership advertisement when the new distributor first started looking for dealers in Canada, you know what they said! We are only going to sign with dealers that already handle another motorcycle line. <- omg r-u-stupid? ... You don't want somebody exclusively dedicated to selling and supporting your product? Good luck with that.

RE are actually clever , they know they are a 2nd or 3rd line. You open a RE only store and somebody has to have a salesman , parts dept, inventory and a licenced tech. Its a huge capital investment, with pretty big overheads.
And the worst thing for any marketing, the store may fail. Nobody wants to be part of that , it just bad for business and brand perception.
MotoGuzzi is actively recruiting dealers and would consider a stand alone store, but it needs to be in the GTA.

 

[Brian P]

KTM would have a lot to gain. You can sell a lot of motorcycles in Asia -- but you make $10/bike. KTM is a bit player in North America, they sell 1 bike for every 10 sold by Honda. Another issue is their growth is in entry level and dirt bike segments -- lower margin & high volume - a tough game in the MC market.

But how would a business relationship with H-D benefit KTM?

KTM already has manufacturing partners in Asia and already sells bikes in Asia.

They already have a sales network in North America. Anyone who wants a KTM can get one. Yes, the dealer network is sparse in some areas but keep in mind that there is no Honda motorcycle dealer in Toronto, either.

Piggybacking on top of the H-D dealer network ain't gonna happen. Dealers would revolt and H-D's existing customers would revolt.

H-D has manufacturing plants in the USA. Unionized. High cost.

KTM's large adventure bikes are a moneymaker and it's an established product.

 

[wonderings]

But how would a business relationship with H-D benefit KTM?

KTM already has manufacturing partners in Asia and already sells bikes in Asia.

They already have a sales network in North America. Anyone who wants a KTM can get one. Yes, the dealer network is sparse in some areas but keep in mind that there is no Honda motorcycle dealer in Toronto, either.

Piggybacking on top of the H-D dealer network ain't gonna happen. Dealers would revolt and H-D's existing customers would revolt.

H-D has manufacturing plants in the USA. Unionized. High cost.

KTM's large adventure bikes are a moneymaker and it's an established product.

Having the Harley dealer network is HUGE. I do not think HD riders would revolt, they would just need to keep the brands separate. Bikers like looking at bikes, even Harley riders. Pretty sure the BMW bike dealer is bigger then the KTM in N. America and I read about guys who are 900 miles away from their closest dealer. Many if not all states have 1 dealer if that. Not the same with Harley, they are everywhere and is something to be envied in terms of a dealer network. KTM are not replacement Harleys, they are for a different type of riding obviously and many Harley guys are into off road as well, or have kids who love riding and want a little 250. I only see positives for KTM if they were taken on by Harley and they were able to keep the brands distinctly separate while utilizing the amazing network Harley has.

Canada would not add any real value, too small a market and a much shorter riding season.

 

[Trials]

... keep in mind that there is no Honda motorcycle dealer in Toronto, either.

The old one in Scarborough does a good job making it look like they do :|

... apparently only Some Honda motorcycle dealers get to sell Montesa, who they are seems to be a secret.

 

[ReSTored]

I do not think HD riders would revolt, they would just need to keep the brands separate.

I think they would, as would dealers. HD is a very unique brand with a very loyal, but diminishing base, of supporters. Given their current line up sales will continue to diminish as the number of white post WW2 baby boomers fades away to nothing. HD owners seem to scorn other brand motorcycle riders and, in particular, in the US the HD brand, riding and its symbolism re freedom is a way of life for many, but these people are literally dying out and being replaced in smaller numbers by people scratching out a living and not able to afford $25,000 - $35,000 HD's.

 

[wonderings]

I think they would, as would dealers. HD is a very unique brand with a very loyal, but diminishing base, of supporters. Given their current line up sales will continue to diminish as the number of white post WW2 baby boomers fades away to nothing. HD owners seem to scorn other brand motorcycle riders and, in particular, in the US the HD brand, riding and its symbolism re freedom is a way of life for many, but these people are literally dying out and being replaced in smaller numbers by people scratching out a living and not able to afford $25,000 - $35,000 HD's.

The idea that HD owners scorn other brands is a bit ridiculous. I have found most HD riders to be incredibly friendly and interested. Sure there are some "purists" but that is not just a Harley thing. SS riders, ADV riders, Goldwing riders, etc etc.

If sales really are dwindling dealers would not revolt at something that could potentially bring in more money. Those dealerships for the most part are large and will cost a few dollars to keep operational. I seriously doubt the majority of business owners are going to be so stuck on brand loyalty while profits dive that they would hate having a new stream of revenue coming in.

We all have our ideas of how these people are, that does not make it a reality. Any HD dealer I have been into across the US have been incredibly friendly despite the BMW logo on my jacket and the BMW mingling with the chrome in their parking lot. This is just my experience, but I think it is probably closer to reality then HD guys hate anything non Harley.

 

[xrljoel]

"Bikers like looking at bikes, even Harley riders. "

My experience has been that (close to) a majority of HD owners don't ride a motorcycle - they ride a Harley. If there was no Harley they wouldn't ride at all. Just my experience over the years.

The only way KTM & HD could coexist in dealerships would be to have completely separate spaces without any cross pollination of product.

 

[Lightcycle]

The idea that HD owners scorn other brands is a bit ridiculous.

Not ridiculous, in my experience. It is, in fact, very true.

If sales really are dwindling dealers would not revolt at something that could potentially bring in more money. Those dealerships for the most part are large and will cost a few dollars to keep operational. I seriously doubt the majority of business owners are going to be so stuck on brand loyalty while profits dive that they would hate having a new stream of revenue coming in.

It was the HD dealer network that sabotaged headquarters' marketing attempts and effectively killed their own in-house models and brands: V-ROD and Buell. They will decimate KTM a lot faster.

 

[wonderings]

Not ridiculous, in my experience. It is, in fact, very true.



It was the HD dealer network that sabotaged headquarters' marketing attempts and effectively killed their own in-house models and brands: V-ROD and Buell. They will decimate KTM a lot faster.

I think that is just it, we are all pulling from personal experience which is hardly a basis of reality. My experience is opposite, met many HD riders on the road who have been very friendly, be it touring or just pulling to a gas station around town.

Not sure about the sabotaged marketing, just bad business if so.

 

[Trials]

The H-D Street 500 & 750's if they have one are in the back room, where they used to keep the Buell's.
Or right next to the washroom depending on the building layout.


KTM totally makes sense for H-D, they can just change the stickers and leave the colour.

"The idea that HD owners scorn other brands is a bit ridiculous." Actually I think I met that guy, he kicked my Honda over in the parking lot once but I think he's dead now.

 

[HarleyHare]

What was that place that used to be on Dundas near 427 that carried multi-lines? Long gone now as is that selling model. Spent a few Saturdays in there sitting on bikes like RG500’s and Interceptors.

That was Cycle World and were around for about 50 years. When I was in high school and a friend of mine watched Easy Rider we used to go there after school and looked at the Triumph and BSA 500s and were ready to buy and explore the world. My life would have been different if I did, and today I would probably look like my icon picture.

 

[Trials]

+ Sonic Honda Suzuki& BMW, Firth's Norton, Brown's all kinds of bikes, the Honda dealer on Queen street, Fred Deley for Yamaha, Montesa on Eglinton Ave.
Triumph and Yamaha dealer on St.Clair Ave. you could buy a new TZ125, 250 or 350 right out of the showroom for basically twice the price of the street version.
I look exactly like my icon picture.

edit: Yamaha/Triumph was on O'conner Dr. not St. Clair.

 

[HarleyHare]

"The idea that HD owners scorn other brands is a bit ridiculous." Actually I think I met that guy, he kicked my Honda over in the parking lot once but I think he's dead now.

H-D riders are the most likely not to wave back at you, unless you have an equivalent bike. And the fact that you think the guy that kicked your Honda over is dead, looks like you know way too much about that than you should. And they say H-D riders are bad-*ss!

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