Is Tuition Really THAT Unreasonable in Ontario?

knowledge

knowledge

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E-mail from the student federation at my university:
In May of this year, student representatives from across the country voted to call a national day of action in 2012 to demonstrate Canada-wide support for a national vision for higher education. This means on February 1, 2012 students from Victoria to St. John's will be taking to the streets to demand reductions in tuition fees, greater investment in college and university education and measures to alleviate student debt.

Is tuition really THAT bad? I did some calculations and on a bad year, it'll be 8k a year including textbooks. Minimum wage (10.25) for 20 hours a week, for the rest of the year will earn someone roughly 9000 dollars after tax returns and all that crap for students. Now, you factor in that minimum wage isn't even mandatory - there are plenty of student jobs that pay 12/hour at the very least. That comes to around $11000 dollars after tax returns. So that gives students more than enough spending money. If they want even more spending money, they can find plenty of jobs that'll pay 15/hour. Or they could even find a higher-paying job, work less, and still afford this "insane tuition" (which, by the way, is 10000 - ~50000 a year in the United States).

On top of all this, it seems like people forget that OSAP is a privilege; not something that we're entitled to. If you can't work and focus on school at the same time, then the government's nice enough to give you an interest-free until you graduate. I'd even go so far as saying that being able to go to a university in another city isn't something that we're entitled to get a loan for.

WTF gives? Are students just whiny little babies, or am I missing something here?
 
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Well I know for me 9 k for the year never would have been enough and yes I paid my own schooling in its entirety...

You aren't factoring in food, possible travel costs, living costs etc, some students are mature students that have other responsibilities etc... I cut corners where I could and bought texts used etc....

The stupidity of osap would only fund me if I was headed to school part time so that's what I did... Not sure which profession your in but back when I went to school most college students were having a hard time even. Finding a job for minimum wage let alone 12-15 hr you speak of because the students lacked the experience employers wanted....

Am I whining nope I dealt with it and have no current student debt and
I've been out of school approx 4 years.

I will say I think your approximation of costs is off for what many students costs are.

Jenn
 
I think you are missing something.

Higher education has always been a privilege. If everyone had a degree, it would be worthless.

Tuition + Books is an easy $8-9k per year.
+ Lets not forget $1400 for parking OR around the same amount for public transport.
+ Food when on campus (even if you bring it from home, it still costs money)

Lets say you do work 20 hrs a week @ $15 an hour -- That’s $15,600 before taxes.
Once you factor in all the above
+ Car insurance (if you have)
+ Cost of car/gas/maintenance
+ Rent if you are paying it..

= You're broke.
Can it be done? Yes. Will it be easy? Heck no.

I don't feel sorry for the students who cry for college tuition to be lowered, while they prick away on iTunes using their new iPad and drinking a mochafrappacappa latte from Starbucks.

Slightly off topic, but a lot of the hipster's occupying baystreet don't seem to understand that when the government gives colleges $ - they don't lower the price of education, they spend it on developing the school (ie. Paying for better professors and "environment")... When the government gives $ to students which simply increases the demand to go to college, the college raises the price of tuition, simple demand and supply. Neither will lower the price of tuition -- It will always remain for the 'privileged'. :rolleyes:


/rant
 
You forget renting rooms and transportation if any.

I was lucky enough to have my parents pay for it, whooo-pee-doop-pee
 
That may have been the case back then, but there are plenty of student jobs that pay well NOW.

Being frugal depends on the person trying. It's a hassle, but packing a lunch is always optional.

My point was that you can afford education by itself on minimum wage while barely working. If you want the other perks of life, you gotta work more to pay for them.

I honestly call bs when a student says they can't find a part-time job. How can you not find a part-time job in a city like Toronto? If you can't find a part-time job, it just means that you're doing something wrong (case in point: I've coached friends who've told me this and they got a job shortly after). Hell, you could even look on Kijiji and find plenty of jobs that pay cash and aren't even demanding.

If a student lacks the experience (which I still don't think is a valid point because many entry-level student jobs that hire without experience pay 12), that's not the employer's or the government's fault. And "getting experience" isn't even hard 'cause all you'd have to do is get a job at McDonalds, then start looking for a new job as soon as you get hired (or you can lie on your resume if you're okay with that).
 
My tuition was $11,000 per year in my first year, and rose to $13,500 by my fourth year. It's now well over $14K for the students still in the program. Add to this the cost of textbooks; they weren't cheap textbooks.

On top of this, add in the cost of living in the most expensive city in Canada.

Oh, and it was a professional program, so you needed professional work clothes for rotations, not ratty jeans and hoodies. More money there.

Not to mention all the odd expenses: N95 mask fitting, registration with the college, board exams, the cost of gas or housing when you were sent on rotations far away.

For your typical undergrad degree, tuition is in the $6000 a year range, and goes up for professional programs. I find it hard to be sympathetic for someone getting yet another degree in English or philosophy who demands that tuition be free for everyone. We don't really need more of those people, and those degrees exist mostly as moneymakers for the universities anyways. But what about degrees like law, or medicine, or nursing, or engineering? We need more of those (well, maybe not the lawyers). And more importantly, having a high financial barrier to those schools puts people from poor families at a bigger disadvantage. I think it's more important that people have a smaller barrier to go to med school or engineering than to an English degree. And at least with those programs, you stand a chance of getting a job to pay off your debt.
 
knowledge said:
Is tuition really THAT bad? I did some calculations and on a bad year, it'll be 8k a year including textbooks....

WTF gives? Are students just whiny little babies, or am I missing something here?
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I wouldn't say things are "insane", but there is a lot more to consider.

Tuition, student fees, all those other compulsory University fees... I was looking at $10,000/yr including text books and I graduated back in '08. Prices are higher now. Sure, you can save money by selling off some of your books or buying used ones, but the bottom line is that it's not cheap. Also consider that you have housing and food to pay for, and don't forget that school is full-time... holding down a job isn't easy (especially for some faculties...).

Assuming that you can work a steady 40 hrs/wk over the 16 week summer, and maybe 10 hours a week for the remainder of the year, that's 1,000 hours/yr. When I was working in Co-op for engineering, I was lucky to get $15/hr. I would say that $11 - $12 is closer to average which means $11k - $12k/yr before taxes.

As far as costs in the states, I'll agree that prices are FUBAR'ed.

Now, if OSAP wanted to forgive my debt in it's entirety, would that be so bad? If the money I received from OSAP was forgiven, I would be taking that money and putting it directly towards the down payment of a house. And it's not like Ontario's investment in my education is going to waste. My certification and knowledge is earning my company, and the province, additional business which equates to more money and a stronger economy. My company sells within Ontario, and my customers sell around the world!

Education should be a right, not a privilege.
 
Ultimately, if you want cheaper tuition, you'll have to increase taxes, or reallocate tax money. Neither is going to be looked on favourably.
 
Don't get me started on the cost of an education. 3 years in college + 11 years in university here. I owe! I owe!

And knowledge, OSAP is not "interest free." You don't have to start paying it back for 12 months after graduation. What they don't tell you is that the interest accrues over that 12 month grace period and continues to accrue over the years it takes you to pay it off. Oh yeah. Ask me how I know this for a fact. I never again applied for OSAP loans.
 
Couldn't afford school. Luckily, I made my way by another means.

Grew up with a decently well off home... And because of that, OSAP would give me nothing, assuming I had help from parents... Which was wrong, since my parents were long ago split up, and neither of them would give me a penny.
Lived in a relatively small town. No jobs to offer to even start making money to save up, so I just barely got by. Had a ****** $1200 car just so I could get to work, didn't have "nice" things. It just wasn't possible for me to go.
Had there been a glimmer of hope I would have gone for it, but there just wasn't.

There are lots of kids in that situation, with bright minds and the urge to have a real, interesting career but they end up stuck and never getting off their feet. I got lucky, and while it may seem I took the "easy" route, it definitely wasn't.

It's a shame that the "privileged" kids that come from a wealthy home are the ones to keep getting the opportunities, and those kids don't understand why everyone didn't naturally get the chance to go and turn in to self righteous "get a job, loser" types.

I agree, that for some things like "philosophy", yeah sure, go ahead and pay for that degree. But for kids that show an aptitude for something like say being a doctor, why not help them out? Or the kid that does very well in physics and technical math classes, help him become an engineer?
Or, the kid that grew up on a farm and is good with his hands, help him become a tradesman... Even just to become an apprentice isn't easy these days... I know, I spent 5 years busting my balls working every single dirty job just to get my chance... And when I got my chance, the shop downsized so I lost it.
 
I can see both sides of the argument so I'm not really going to get into it, but I just had one question: what type of student-friendly part time jobs out there pay $15/hr? I'm not saying they aren't there, but to say that there are *lots* of them? I dunno, maybe things have changed in the last 10 years that I've been out of school, but I doubt it...

I agree though that students shouldn't have too hard of a time finding SOME kind of employment. But realistically it ain't gonna be the kind of money to pay all the bills AND cover tuition.
 
Stats Canada says

Canadian full-time students in undergraduate programs this fall paid 4.0% more on average in tuition fees for the 2010/2011 academic year than they did a year earlier. This increase is slightly higher than the one for 2009/2010, when tuition fees rose 3.6%.

On average, undergraduate students paid $5,138 in tuition fees in 2010/2011 compared with $4,942 a year earlier. In comparison, inflation as measured by the Consumer Price Index increased 1.8% between July 2009 and July 2010.

As was the case in 2009/2010, tuition fees rose in all but three provinces. Fees remained unchanged in Newfoundland and Labrador and New Brunswick, while, for a third year in a row, fees declined in Nova Scotia (-4.5%). Elsewhere, tuition fee increases ranged from 1.5% in Alberta to 5.4% in Ontario.

On average, undergraduate students in Ontario paid the highest fees ($6,307) in Canada, followed by students in New Brunswick who paid average university tuition fees of $5,516.

Undergrads in Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador continued to have the lowest tuition fees, averaging $2,415 and $2,624 respectively.
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Even Ontario's average tuition rates aren't all that much in the greater scheme of things, especially considering that a decent degree in a decent field will reap substantial income benefits afterwards. That tuition fee is an investment that you'll be able to profit from.

And for what it's worth, I was paying $1,800 per COURSE for tuition each semester at Syracuse University 15 years ago, and books were on top of that. The heavily government subsidized rates in Ontario are still a bargain by comparision even if they have gone up.
 
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knowledge said:
That may have been the case back then, but there are plenty of student jobs that pay well NOW.

Being frugal depends on the person trying. It's a hassle, but packing a lunch is always optional.

My point was that you can afford education by itself on minimum wage while barely working. If you want the other perks of life, you gotta work more to pay for them.
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A roof over your head and food are "perks" lol???

Your scenarios cover ONLY tuition. I'm gonna assume you're first year and live with your parents or something, so you don't quite have a full grasp on what it actually takes to be on your own and go to school while working.
 
When i started undergrad engineering at UWO in 2002 my tuition was just over $5000/yr.
When i graduated in 2007 my tuition was $7300/yr
I checked a few weeks ago to see what the current kids are paying. Tuition for the 2011/2012 term is $10,300.

Seems like a rather large increase to me.
 
"Tons of student jobs"!?!?!

Umm...you realize we're still in a recession? and that the regular joe blows are now taking up those student jobs more and more...

The problem is that now everyone expect you to have diploma and degrees up your yin yang "so i see u have a BA and a Masters..........what else u got?"

Price of education hasnt gone up much but they keep hiking the prices....THATS what everyone is bitching about...We have been told that for the good jobs you have to go to University....its DRILLED into us. So everyone goes to university...So now they gotta figure out how to make it more "elitist". Price it out of reach of people....Unfortunately, in today's worlds of everything on credit that doesnt work either...

and Profs who force you to buy THEIR published books... "umm yea, i moved some pages around, added some pictures and reworded some stuff...so you cant use last years books...gotta go buy em" so they can get their ****ing royalties on that ****.
 
short stop said:
I can see both sides of the argument so I'm not really going to get into it, but I just had one question: what type of student-friendly part time jobs out there pay $15/hr? I'm not saying they aren't there, but to say that there are *lots* of them? I dunno, maybe things have changed in the last 10 years that I've been out of school, but I doubt it...

I agree though that students shouldn't have too hard of a time finding SOME kind of employment. But realistically it ain't gonna be the kind of money to pay all the bills AND cover tuition.
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Marketing, bartending, government owned (but privately operated business) like via rail, municipal parking, on-campus jobs, restaurants, tutoring, translating, construction, many receptionist positions, hospitals, hotels, valet, parks and recreation, sales, etc. If you can control for jobs that not everyone can get. If you control for jobs that aren't easy to get, there are still enough jobs to go around. The real problem is that students choose to work retail (which has 2 seasons where you'll get decent shifts and you get paid minimum wage).

People don't get paid enough because they don't take advantage of their niches/strengths/assets. If you look good, go to a superficial industry. If you're smart, go to one where you can use your mind. If you're neither, do something labour-intensive. (and that's not to say that people who are doign hard labour aren't smart or anything...I'm just saying that you can learn to specialize at a student). If you're a genius, why don't you tutor a kid instead of folding clothes for minimum wage at a retail store?

mmmnaked said:
A roof over your head and food are "perks" lol???

Your scenarios cover ONLY tuition. I'm gonna assume you're first year and live with your parents or something, so you don't quite have a full grasp on what it actually takes to be on your own and go to school while working.
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Third year and I'm self-sufficient. But I live at home and help out so it's as if I pay rent and I pay for all my expenses (including food). And I work full-time + overtime, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone else to hold down a part-time job and still be able to handle school. And I'm not a genius, either...so it's not like Uni's a walk in the park for me...

As for perks, I was more referring to things like going out, partying, clubbing, and general things that students do for fun (Which obviously costs money). I also know plenty of people who are living on their own and are making it work with money left over. I'm saying that before we cry for horrible tuition rates, maybe people need to learn to manage their money better or actually start working - half of the people at these protests are on OSAP and living on res.
 
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caboose483 said:
When i started undergrad engineering at UWO in 2002 my tuition was just over $5000/yr.
When i graduated in 2007 my tuition was $7300/yr
I checked a few weeks ago to see what the current kids are paying. Tuition for the 2011/2012 term is $10,300.

Seems like a rather large increase to me.
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Does that program include a placement? 'Cause engineering placements pay really well nowadays. And with all the placements you do before you graduate, it looks pretty good on you when you graduate. I have buddies working for various big-name companies (google, canadian space agency, RIM, etc.) as part of their placements and they're making good bank. Even the ones at mid-tier engineering placements are still making decent money.

I'll admit that it's a big increase, but engineering's also becoming even more competitive than it already is. So you're paying a premium for it, no?
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