Is this the beginning of the end for Harley?

[SlowMo]

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Yup, they needed the liquid cooling technology and EFI packages to match, to meet California air review board certs CARB std. Its thier biggest market. MV had all that in house and more (they made helicopters i hear ) , buy the company, move all the proprietary information and technology home. Declare 100m loss against future earnings, still get bailout money. Interesting accountants up there in Milwaukee, but not stupid. Winding down the MV business would have cost triple giving back to the Castiglioni Bros.

The whole MV thing was a debacle.
HD already had liquid cooling and good EFI packages from Buell. Those were already approved for use in California.

Many financial analysts think it was a mistake from day 1.
A total write down of about $162 million just for MV Agusta alone. Add in the $125 million to shutter Buell... Ouch.
Here's an article (from a bike website) to peruse:

http://www.moto123.com/motorcycle-n...ival-in-a-disastrous-economy.spy?artid=122031

 

[dirtbag]

The whole MV thing was a debacle.
HD already had liquid cooling and good EFI packages from Buell. Those were already approved for use in California.

Many financial analysts think it was a mistake from day 1.
A total write down of about $162 million just for MV Agusta alone. Add in the $125 million to shutter Buell... Ouch.
Here's an article (from a bike website) to peruse:

http://www.moto123.com/motorcycle-n...ival-in-a-disastrous-economy.spy?artid=122031

If you're referring to the LC from the V-Rod didn't the Germans help out with that (Bosch or BMW??)

I think it was Jason who mentioned stereotyping harley riders but arn't they already a stereotype? Black beanie, wrap around sunglasses, goatee, HD t-shirt, with optional black jacket and chaps if it's cold enough.

 

[dricked]

If you're referring to the LC from the V-Rod didn't the Germans help out with that (Bosch or BMW??)

I think it was Jason who mentioned stereotyping harley riders but arn't they already a stereotype? Black beanie, wrap around sunglasses, goatee, HD t-shirt, with optional black jacket and chaps if it's cold enough.

I bieleve it was Porsche.

 

[rbjeepthing]

I would consider myself as being a young aged (31) rider at that turning point in my riding career where I finally get off my SS and move into something a little more practical.

Having spent a day last week riding a Street Glide for 800miles (over 1000 miles in 2 days) I still don't think I get the HD thing. Why the heck was everyone so nice to me everywhere myself and my wife went? Heck even people who we passed or passed us had smiles on their faces and waved or gave us the thumbs up. We never get that when we are riding our SS's.

The bike itself just changed me for those brief 48 hours. It truly did nothing well and I kept nit picking about it's lack of anything great when comparing it to previous bikes I have owned or ridden. The only difference is for some reason I didn't want to get off or return the bike at the end. I found myself wondering how I could convince my wife we needed yet another bike and that it was going to cost 25+k. Apparently she was thinking the same thing since she asked how much it would be to buy then had a heart attack when the employee told her.

After writing the above I think it just clicked and maybe I do know what the HD thing is. Maybe its the fact that HD doesn't try to be something it isn't. Maybe that's why I enjoyed the bike so much it was real instead of just another bike trying to be the best.

(Now off to the garage to hug my RR as I feel I have just confessed to cheating)

 

[SlowMo]

I bieleve it was Porsche.

Correct. Porsche designed the motor for Buell, but then HD got their paws on it, added 70 pounds of dead steel weight because it didn't look like a HD motor and promptly threw it into the V-Rod. No longer useful to Buell with the weight, so they went to Rotax for the 1125 engine.

 

[Sunspark]

rbjeepthing: Is this a joke? You said it did nothing well compared to previous bikes of yours, then you wanted to buy it?

 

[crankcall]

Its no joke, I get the rbjeepthing story. There are pockets once you get out of the GTA where HD is not pointed and giggled at. They are bought by usually older riders, possibly better established in life and they smile and say hello. They stop and talk about your ride with no flexing , posturing or my wiener is bigger than your wiener syndrome.
I borrow an HD when at our cottage, maybe riding two up also makes couples smile and say hello, but I get let into traffic, waved at and have random conversations when parked.
Yeah, the roadking we borrow is pretty heavy for me, doesnt brake really well or accelerate compared to what i own, but we may get something like it.

 

[Sunspark]

I have a lot of trouble with the whole always-wrenching, stale cigarettes/beer and SOA t-shirts imagery for (to my income) too much money that is Harley.

Polaris Victory and Indian lines are also "American". Maybe they have the same experience with better quality?

 

[Jason Bourne]

I think it was Jason who mentioned stereotyping harley riders but arn't they already a stereotype? Black beanie, wrap around sunglasses, goatee, HD t-shirt, with optional black jacket and chaps if it's cold enough.

No more so than sportbike riders are a already a stereotype. Bright multi-coloured helmet, flashy Power Ranger outfit complete with racing boots like they're doing laps on the track. Some even sport a mohawk on their helmet when they feel like drawing more attention to themselves.

Not sure what the point of stereotyping is. It works both ways. And as for "tough guy" attitudes, there are some ******* who ride Harleys and some ******* who ride sportbikes.

 

[Matt Rain]

they smile and say hello. They stop and talk about your ride with no flexing , posturing or my wiener is bigger than your wiener syndrome.
I borrow an HD when at our cottage, maybe riding two up also makes couples smile and say hello, but I get let into traffic, waved at and have random conversations when parked.

Happens to me all the time and I ride an old POS "sport" bike. It's mostly older people who reminisce about their riding days that come over to chat.

I wave at cruiser guys and they rarely wave back. Whatevs.

We're all someone else's *******. Deal with it.

 

[Jason Bourne]

There's a Harley saying that goes "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand". The majority of younger riders in Canada (in the States many grow up wanting a Harley) will never get it if all they want to do is go fast and carve corners because Harley's are obviously not built for that. Once you reach that stage of wanting a cruiser or touring bike you realize it's not always about going fast but just enjoying the ride.

I came from owning Gixxers, CBR's, and Yammies and went to a V-rod and am now on a Street Glide. I appreciate all bikes for what they are. Not sure why other's can't without feeling the need to bash other bikes and riders.

As for SloMo and others questioning the business savvy of HD - this is a company that just celebrated it's 110th Anniversary and employees over 6K people. I think they must be doing something right. It's easy to play armchair quarterback and critque some of the moves that Harley has made but why don't you share with us your resume and experience that makes you such a business expert? What business have you started, what's your annual revenue, and how long have you been in business for?

 

[fastar1]

There's a Harley saying that goes "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand". The majority of younger riders in Canada (in the States many grow up wanting a Harley) will never get it if all they want to do is go fast and carve corners because Harley's are obviously not built for that. Once you reach that stage of wanting a cruiser or touring bike you realize it's not always about going fast but just enjoying the ride.

I came from owning Gixxers, CBR's, and Yammies and went to a V-rod and am now on a Street Glide. I appreciate all bikes for what they are. Not sure why other's can't without feeling the need to bash other bikes and riders.

As for SloMo and others questioning the business savvy of HD - this is a company that just celebrated it's 110th Anniversary and employees over 6K people. I think they must be doing something right. It's easy to play armchair quarterback and critque some of the moves that Harley has made but why don't you share with us your resume and experience that makes you such a business expert? What business have you started, what's your annual revenue, and how long have you been in business for?

You seem like a reasonable guy, maybe you can help me understand the whole cruiser (not just HD) thing?

When you say it's about "just enjoying the ride", is there anything about sport bikes, or sport-touring, or touring bikes, that prevents you from enjoying the ride? To my mind, cruisers cost twice as much as perform half as well, so they'd somehow need to be about 4x better at "ride enjoyment" to make sense. What am I missing?

 

[rbjeepthing]

rbjeepthing: Is this a joke? You said it did nothing well compared to previous bikes of yours, then you wanted to buy it?

Not a joke at all. For all the short comings of the bike it had soul. As I traveled down the interstate hard rock classics blaring from the speakers legs stretched out and that classic Harley sound I was content with myself and the world. Heck I wasn't even wanting to speed just sit back and enjoy the ride in the slow lane. It's not supposed to be a SS and it's not trying to be one so that being said it was performing as intended.

Its no joke, I get the rbjeepthing story. There are pockets once you get out of the GTA where HD is not pointed and giggled at. They are bought by usually older riders, possibly better established in life and they smile and say hello. They stop and talk about your ride with no flexing , posturing or my wiener is bigger than your wiener syndrome.
I borrow an HD when at our cottage, maybe riding two up also makes couples smile and say hello, but I get let into traffic, waved at and have random conversations when parked.
Yeah, the roadking we borrow is pretty heavy for me, doesnt brake really well or accelerate compared to what i own, but we may get something like it.

Glad to see this wasn't just southern US hospitality.

 

[ReSTored]

You seem like a reasonable guy, maybe you can help me understand the whole cruiser (not just HD) thing?

When you say it's about "just enjoying the ride", is there anything about sport bikes, or sport-touring, or touring bikes, that prevents you from enjoying the ride? To my mind, cruisers cost twice as much as perform half as well, so they'd somehow need to be about 4x better at "ride enjoyment" to make sense. What am I missing?

I never really understand this type of comment. Everyone is different and all enjoy the bike they are riding at the moment. If their needs or wants change they get a different type of bike and continue on. The fact that I enjoy an sport touring bike now after owning motocross, trials, dual sport and small street bikes in the past is OK with me and should be absolutely irrelevant to everyone else. Maybe new year I'll get a GL1800, who knows (or cares).

The whole cruiser thing, in my mind, is about social riding where group activities seem to be more important than actully riding. I've attended a few "Ride for xxxx" events, didn't really enjoy them and now give them a pass. But really, who cares as everyone there seemed to be having a good time.

 

[SlowMo]

As for SloMo and others questioning the business savvy of HD - this is a company that just celebrated it's 110th Anniversary and employees over 6K people.

Got me there, no financial degree for me.
BUT, you have to admit, any company that runs themselves into the ground to the point that they rely on a government bailout (i.e. give us money or we are dead) has obviously done something wrong.

 

[Jason Bourne]

Got me there, no financial degree for me.
BUT, you have to admit, any company that runs themselves into the ground to the point that they rely on a government bailout (i.e. give us money or we are dead) has obviously done something wrong.

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that HD has had a such a large influence on the US that their Government is concerned enough to step in and help them in a time of crisis. They mean as much to the US economy as GM. That's saying something.

They may not have the best bikes on the market but they have built the biggest brand in the industry that their logo is recognizable anywhere in the world.
That's not bad.

 

[Jason Bourne]

You seem like a reasonable guy, maybe you can help me understand the whole cruiser (not just HD) thing?

When you say it's about "just enjoying the ride", is there anything about sport bikes, or sport-touring, or touring bikes, that prevents you from enjoying the ride? To my mind, cruisers cost twice as much as perform half as well, so they'd somehow need to be about 4x better at "ride enjoyment" to make sense. What am I missing?

Ireally can't explain it. It's not about going fast for everyone. It's just about being on two wheels. If you're completely disinterested in cruisers thenyou're not there yet and perhaps you never will be. Nothing wrong with that. Ifwe all liked the same thing we would all own the same bike!

Maybe this movie would help explain:
http://whyweridefilm.com/screenings-videos.html

 

[Dresden]

There's a Harley saying that goes "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand". The majority of younger riders in Canada (in the States many grow up wanting a Harley) will never get it if all they want to do is go fast and carve corners because Harley's are obviously not built for that. Once you reach that stage of wanting a cruiser or touring bike you realize it's not always about going fast but just enjoying the ride.

I came from owning Gixxers, CBR's, and Yammies and went to a V-rod and am now on a Street Glide. I appreciate all bikes for what they are. Not sure why other's can't without feeling the need to bash other bikes and riders.

As for SloMo and others questioning the business savvy of HD - this is a company that just celebrated it's 110th Anniversary and employees over 6K people. I think they must be doing something right. It's easy to play armchair quarterback and critque some of the moves that Harley has made but why don't you share with us your resume and experience that makes you such a business expert? What business have you started, what's your annual revenue, and how long have you been in business for?

+1 this guy gets it. Great post.

 

[Dresden]

You seem like a reasonable guy, maybe you can help me understand the whole cruiser (not just HD) thing?

When you say it's about "just enjoying the ride", is there anything about sport bikes, or sport-touring, or touring bikes, that prevents you from enjoying the ride? To my mind, cruisers cost twice as much as perform half as well, so they'd somehow need to be about 4x better at "ride enjoyment" to make sense. What am I missing?

You know, there are a whole lot of people who ride motorcycles for:
- the joy of open road and wind in you face
- being on two wheels
- nostalgia on two wheels
- the "community" "sense of belonging" feeling
and the list goes on.

Generally speaking, they don't care how fast they can take that last corner or how easy it was to take the one before (presumably due to the ohlin shocks etc.)

I don't ride a cruiser or a Harley, but I get it. One ride on a Nightrod and I just "understood" the concept. My entire ride, I didn't once bother with how fast I was going, or how fast I could go. I just had a big smile and enjoyed myself. In my opinion, that's what Harley's are all about (and cruisers in general).

 

[Kool]

What I want to know is why toshison, Jason Bourne and rbjeepthing are even on this site? Hopefully to interject some reasonable sane commentary instead of the hate crapola from the throngs of Gixxers gone wild here....lol. It's very cool to see we have rational level headed NORMAL motorcycle riders here.
Ya...I had my day riding " da sportbike" even if it was the bastardized Buell...god I loved that bike...still do.
But you do realize at some point it's time for change...or evolve even. I physically realized this ...because my legs would cramp up in that sportbike position...after a hour or two...then after each break it would get less and less. I wanted to enjoy riding....not suffer through it...so I knew my days were numbered on the Buell. Not bad, made it to 53 before movin on. Went on the Algonquin ride ...seen many avid sporty riders stretching out their legs wishing they could stop, but gotta keep going...lol. I just get a sore *** after a couple hours now.
Wanted the cool factor...and I do have my specific tastes as to what is cool for me. So I evolved...to the cruiser world...tried a few HD's just didn't find the right fit and price. Once I seen the Vic. I was intrigued..and once I sat on the Hammer with that nasty fat rear tire...I was bought and sold.
Even I couldn't get my head around riding one of these beasts...christ...this is a crazy big ole bike. Took maybe 15 mins...then I understood....ya it's got limitations but it also has it's positives. And at this point in my motorcycle evolving, I'm very happy and cool with my choice.
I guess half the fun of these sites is the mine is better than yours bs. And it does bring out the best or worse in us all. I'm pretty sure we all will evolve one way or another in our motorcycle pastime. It's the speculative bs and ignorant hate that spoils most conversations. This last bit here is cool...people actually asking why guys like their particular choice and why.
I can see a street glide in my future for sure some day... and even longer distances, with cargo space too. Or a Victory cross country who knows? Sportbikes are cool...for sure, don't get me wrong about that...but all good things come to pass.

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