Is HTA 172 really THAT unsuccessful?

[Rob MacLennan]

I agree wholeheartedly. Fear won't motivate non-sheeple, though. Politicians' fearmongering never scares the independent thinker.

Actually fear will motivate anyone. All that it takes, is to target the fears and desires that a person already has. That frequently gets past the most astute BS detector, because the statements made jibe with what the person already believes. The only way that I've avoided that pitfall myself, in the past, is to make sure that I ask myself, "Why should this be done?" rather than, "Why SHOULDN'T we do this?" as a matter of course.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

There was somewhat of an outcry, but not much. It's one of the few things, done by the Harris government, that I disagree with.

It's questionable whether throwing it open would actually have much of a positive effect. Every time that new capacity is added, it fills. Just look at all the extra lanes that have been added to the 401, over the years. They were filled virtually from the day they were opened.

considering that they were overdue in need it's not surprising that they were filled instantly.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

considering that they were overdue in need it's not surprising that they were filled instantly.

http://www.probeinternational.org/files/Expressway_History_Brief.pdf

When those plans were scrapped, the plan should have shifted to providing light rail, along the existing highway right-of-ways. They failed to act on that also.

 

[viper84737]

http://www.probeinternational.org/files/Expressway_History_Brief.pdf

When those plans were scrapped, the plan should have shifted to providing light rail, along the existing highway right-of-ways. They failed to act on that also.

I read this and found it interesting, thank you. P.S. Light Rail is only good the way it is implemented on Spadina Ave, where it doesn't interfere with traffic. All the rest of the street cars SUCK ****ING ***. Nobody likes them except useless hippies who have no other mode of transportation and oppose anyone who uses a motor. Get them out of the way of real traffic, or convert them to buses which have the ability to get off the path of travel so we don't have to block everyone at all times in all directions when one guy wants to get on or off. You'll increase efficiency of time and fuel consumption for all.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I read this and found it interesting, thank you. P.S. Light Rail is only good the way it is implemented on Spadina Ave, where it doesn't interfere with traffic. All the rest of the street cars SUCK ****ING ***. Nobody likes them except useless hippies who have no other mode of transportation and oppose anyone who uses a motor. Get them out of the way of real traffic, or convert them to buses which have the ability to get off the path of travel so we don't have to block everyone at all times in all directions when one guy wants to get on or off. You'll increase efficiency of time and fuel consumption for all.

In a big and congested city, like Toronto, streetcars are idiotic. It doesn't matter if it's the Spadina model, St. Clair, or the way that everything else is configured. They conflict with other traffic. They get blocked and stopped if there are collisions, or even just double-parked vehicles. They require expensive infrastructure, that closes roads for extended construction periods, and (in the case of Toronto) can't be bought in 'off the rack' fashion due to an oddball track gauge.

In a city, like this, you create a 'spine' of subways or light rail, for long hauls, then hang bus routes from it. Before the extra lanes were added to 401/427/400/DVP it would have been possible to run rail lines down the right-of-ways, along with platforms that exited on overpasses. This would have required no blocking of flow, on the major limited access highways.

Streetcars need to be discontinued. Now. They're slow and costly, and only still exist due to some wrong-headed attempt to cling to some false sense of 'heritage.' We tear down true heritage buildings, that have a history, but we keep a dysfunctional transit system. How backwards can things be?

 

[AdRath]

IIt doesn't matter if it's the Spadina model, St. Clair

I disagree. The Spadina and St Clair models are exactly how they should be implemented. Their is little to no interferance from traffic and unlike a buss sitting in congested streets unable to move these dedicated streetcar lanes allow it to sail by stopped traffic. St. Cars move over twice as many people as buses per St. Car and pollute less.

I ride the Queen St Car every day when not riding and I prefer it 100 times better than when buses run that route. It would take about 3 buses to move the same amount of people. Considering their is a St. Car every 10 minutes that would be 4-6 busses would be needed in any 20 minute period adding more congestion to the roads.

 

[viper84737]

I have a better idea:

Let's move all the street cars underground so they're out of everyone's way! Oh wait, that's called a subway, and Toronto has dropped the ball on that, too. We have the worst subway infrastructure of any first world, developed, claiming to be a "World Class City" (my ***, btw, Toronto is a joke) major metropolitan city on earth. Yes it's expensive as bloody hell to implement NOW, but in the long run is far better for everyone. Spadina needs a subway line badly, as does either Queen, or King & Dundas (your choice, I think either option would do). Just putting in those two lines alone would massively improve things, let alone extending the Bloor line out to Pearson. These ideas have been tabled for years, yet no politician has the balls to say "ok, we need to invest in our future rather than look for immediate rewards that most of you voters don't understand anyway", which yes, is political suicide, but the stark truth, and no voting public has the brains to sit down and really look at an issue. Instead, we're voting based on some BS fearmongering claim by the other guy. Is it a surprise nothing ever gets accomplished? Is it? Really?

 

[jc100]

You need an elevated monorail to the damn airport too. Getting to Pearson in rush hour from downtown sucks the life from you. I prefer travelling from Dorval (I'm in Kingston) simply because I can get a train there.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I have a better idea:

Let's move all the street cars underground so they're out of everyone's way! Oh wait, that's called a subway, and Toronto has dropped the ball on that, too. We have the worst subway infrastructure of any first world, developed, claiming to be a "World Class City" (my ***, btw, Toronto is a joke) major metropolitan city on earth. Yes it's expensive as bloody hell to implement NOW, but in the long run is far better for everyone. Spadina needs a subway line badly, as does either Queen, or King & Dundas (your choice, I think either option would do). Just putting in those two lines alone would massively improve things, let alone extending the Bloor line out to Pearson. These ideas have been tabled for years, yet no politician has the balls to say "ok, we need to invest in our future rather than look for immediate rewards that most of you voters don't understand anyway", which yes, is political suicide, but the stark truth, and no voting public has the brains to sit down and really look at an issue. Instead, we're voting based on some BS fearmongering claim by the other guy. Is it a surprise nothing ever gets accomplished? Is it? Really?

When I was a kid, living in Don Mills, transit developers from all around the world came to Toronto, to study our "magnificent transit system."

I disagree. The Spadina and St Clair models are exactly how they should be implemented. Their is little to no interferance from traffic and unlike a buss sitting in congested streets unable to move these dedicated streetcar lanes allow it to sail by stopped traffic. St. Cars move over twice as many people as buses per St. Car and pollute less.

I ride the Queen St Car every day when not riding and I prefer it 100 times better than when buses run that route. It would take about 3 buses to move the same amount of people. Considering their is a St. Car every 10 minutes that would be 4-6 busses would be needed in any 20 minute period adding more congestion to the roads.

If you get rid of any of it, you get rid of ALL of it. There's no sense in running disparate transit systems, from either a fiscal or logistical standpoint. Some of the dumbest moves that I see, from drivers and pedestrians both, occur around street cars.

 

[AdRath]

If you get rid of any of it, you get rid of ALL of it. There's no sense in running disparate transit systems, from either a fiscal or logistical standpoint. Some of the dumbest moves that I see, from drivers and pedestrians both, occur around street cars.

Drivers being idiots is not a reflection of streetcars its a reflection of our sub standard licensing and enforcement in Toronto.

So the solution is to clog the roads with buses instead? St Cars have there issues but are still far more effective for moving large amounts of people on busy routes than buses. Subways are superior but who is willing to triple their property taxes and service fees to pay for it? no one could afford to live here then. What other funding solutions are there? Without representational voting its political suicide for any politician to increase taxes all over the province to pay for subways.

What is the solution? Buses are not the answer. Anyone who has ridden a major streetcar route (ie Queen street) on buses knows how much more effective streetcars are. Anyone who rides the Spadina or St Clair lines knows how much further effective the dedicated lanes are then regular St Cars or buses. Buses could not move half the amount of people in twice the time along those 2 routes. dedicated lanes are effective.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

The real solution lies in building out more subway lines and better connections with the 905'ers so their cars don't clog up our roads. Then, there would be way fewer cars out there, which means those buses wouldn't interfere with the traffic.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

That's a start. We need a transit plan that covers the Province, or at least the Golden Horseshoe. If traffic pressure could be reduced, then it would have other benefits. One, that comes immediately to mind, would be a reduction in the number of morons who see the need to weave in traffic, pass on paved shoulders, and blast up merge lanes then force their way back into the regular flow of traffic. Fewer causes of frustration means fewer times people see the 'need' to pull dangerous, idiotic moves.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Unfortunately, it'll be hard to get anyone to act on that. Last municipal elections, I had the choice between a crazy woman who wanted to clog most of the arterials with streetcars and the incumbent whose platform was based on what some washed out athlete, an italian bakery owner and a bunch of other people of similar consequence thought of him (no platform at all).

 

[promac]

Maybe your observations are an indication of things not working. Mine are that things have calmed down a bit since I started driving here 15 years ago. There's certainly way less in the way of knobs speeding along at warp speed weaving between traffic than there used to be. I still see the odd one, but really not that many.

You should try driving to Muskoka and back some weekend. I've been doing it for over 15 years, and it's still the same. However, I do find drivers in rush-hour traffic much more aggressive than they used to be. I've even had drivers force me onto the soft-shoulder on my road bicycle - I suppose they're jealous because I'm moving along at +/- 30kph and they're not. I see the burnout marks on the street and neighbourhood lawns torn up in spite of the fact most cars are either all wheel, front wheel drive with traction control. Maybe the cops should try sitting by some high school exits in an unmarked car between 3:00 & 3:30 if they want to get some easy quota. Try some park parking lots near high schools between noon and 1pm - if you see some kids, they'll probably be drinking or smoking up. I knew one kid in high school who'd park in the York Regional Police lot in Richmond Hill and smoke up. He figured if the smell were detected, they'd figure it was one of their own and leave them alone. Really stupid, IMO, but he never got caught.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

In a big and congested city, like Toronto, streetcars are idiotic. It doesn't matter if it's the Spadina model, St. Clair, or the way that everything else is configured. They conflict with other traffic. They get blocked and stopped if there are collisions, or even just double-parked vehicles. They require expensive infrastructure, that closes roads for extended construction periods, and (in the case of Toronto) can't be bought in 'off the rack' fashion due to an oddball track gauge.

That oddball track gauge was chosen to prevent companies from running rail cars around toronto. Just a little bit of trivia.

We had decent plans (and the eglinton w subway started) but that all got canceled way back when we had the conservatives take power in ontario (all that wasted money filling in the holes/tunnels dug for eglinton).

 

[adamwest]

I find matchin speed of other traffic to be safest. And it's easier to check out the hunnies in other vehicles. hahaha.

 

[V-Tom]

I find matchin speed of other traffic to be safest. And it's easier to check out the hunnies in other vehicles. hahaha.

Studies have shown that motorcycles are safest when travelling at slighly higher speed than the rest of traffic. I first heard this in the 80's and it was from either the OPP or the Ontario government. Given that speed seems to be about the only thing actually enforced right now, I suspect that neither will admit to saying this nowadays.

..Tom

 

[Rossi86]

Studies have shown that motorcycles are safest when travelling at slighly higher speed than the rest of traffic. I first heard this in the 80's and it was from either the OPP or the Ontario government. Given that speed seems to be about the only thing actually enforced right now, I suspect that neither will admit to saying this nowadays.

..Tom

You are right, but as Brian mentioned earlier this law is not about increasing safety. It is about limiting your rights and giving Police all the power to do anything according to their discretion. This law was suggested and pushed by Fantino, ex-Chief of Police, that alone should tell you that it's gone horribly wrong. Cops shouldn't not be suggesting laws, they are not law makers, they are law enforcers. If it were up to the cops to make laws, we would be living in a police gangster state, where cops do anything they want because they have the power to do so.

 

[Shaman]

If it were up to the cops to make laws, we would be living in a police gangster state, where cops do anything they want because they have the power to do so.

What makes you think that you don't? It's really become that bad.