Wheelieboy
Well-known member
I also checked for a loose ground and it doesnt appear loose
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Intermittent Starter Issues
- Thread starter Wheelieboy
- Start date
Trials
Well-known member
Well that ain't right; you should be meter testing the coil side of the relay to see if it gets a nominal 12 volts Only when you press the starter button.
You should be testing the points side of the relay separately to see that it goes from no continuity to full continuity when the relay coil is activated.
A relay is just like a light switch that is activated by an electro magnet instead of your finger.
... you are possibly getting negative voltage readings because your probes are negative to positive reversed or you are dialled into the wrong type of voltage setting on the meter, should be measuring D.C. when testing voltage. Ohms for continuity testing the point side with the battery feed side terminal disconnected. A resistance check of the coil side while the relay is unplugged should show a very small ohm reading to indicate the coil windings are intact and not a dead short.
Trials
Well-known member
You can meter test all your grounds way more accurately then just looking at them or tightening them because your meter can measure a very small electrical resistance.
Trials
Well-known member
As I recall from the schematic the tail light and the front parking light (if so equipped) are directly connected along with the ignition switch. ... do you have the correct and working light bulbs in both the front parking light and the 2 filament bulb tail light ?
... mentioned the tail light bulb being correct because if you put a single filament bulb in a dual filament socket it will short out the terminals in the socket.
... mentioned the tail light bulb being correct because if you put a single filament bulb in a dual filament socket it will short out the terminals in the socket.
Wheelieboy
Well-known member
I only did the voltage reading on the 2 screws on the relay on the “20” setting. I didnt do a resistance check because I didnt really know how.
I followed the negative cable to where it was attached to the bike and it seems like its attached to the engine case and difficult to access. Ill try to access it next time.
Ive never had the front parking lights on. I dont know if the previous owner switched the bulb, or if theyre aftermarket. They look pretty stock though with the huge plastic stalks sticking out.
The tail light bulb is correct because at some point they work as dual filament when everything is fine. But occasionally (and lately more often) the “running/parking” filament does not turn on.
I also tried tapping the relay and it seemed to work, i tapped it a few more times and it didnt work. The 2 front screws on it were tight, I think leading to the coils. This is where i measured -12 at rest and -12.2 when I pressed the button.
I also took the connector out and measured the voltage (from the harness/switch side) when I pressed the starter button. I dont remember what numbers I saw, but I got a large spike when I pressed the starter button, i think I saw a steady 12. I assume this means my starter button is working fine?
Could it be that I have a faulty relay?
One thing Im going to do is check the back of the relay where it actually goes to the starter. Im not sure if its hard wired or connected somehow between the relay and the starter motor
Mad Mike
Well-known member
You have a BINGO there. Both share a common ground. Try jumping the small ground side wire on the solenoid to the negative on your battery.
Trials
Well-known member
"Could it be that I have a faulty relay?" 
That's what we are trying to determine by using the multi-meter.
Three things you need to ascertain with just the relay alone:
1) is there power getting to the relay coil to slam the points closed, this is just a simple on or off state, we don't care much about the resistance readings here unless we are testing the coil windings for an internal short.
2) do the points make a solid enough connection to carry the very high current required to turn the starter motor, this is where we hope there is zero resistance between the battery positive terminal and the post on the starter motor. Note: we are also making a huge assumption here that your battery is 100% good.
3) is there a good solid zero resistance ground between the battery negative terminal and the starter motor ground. (this part could actually be tested just by connecting an additional jumper cable between the battery negative terminal and the starter motor ground because now we know we have a good ground there)
Yes, connections on the points side of the relay will all be hard wired and typically use heavier gauge wire (lets call that the load side).
The coil side will be light gauge wires and incorporate push together connectors (lets call that the signal side)
Based on what you say above it sounds like you have a signal and it is the load side we still need to confirm as 100% solid.
Is really really difficult to document the procedure to meter test a motorcycle, but so simple to understand once you have physically seen it done.
:/ Now would be a good time to use the 'call a friend' lifeline, anybody with even hobby level electronics knowledge will do.
That's what we are trying to determine by using the multi-meter.Three things you need to ascertain with just the relay alone:
1) is there power getting to the relay coil to slam the points closed, this is just a simple on or off state, we don't care much about the resistance readings here unless we are testing the coil windings for an internal short.
2) do the points make a solid enough connection to carry the very high current required to turn the starter motor, this is where we hope there is zero resistance between the battery positive terminal and the post on the starter motor. Note: we are also making a huge assumption here that your battery is 100% good.
3) is there a good solid zero resistance ground between the battery negative terminal and the starter motor ground. (this part could actually be tested just by connecting an additional jumper cable between the battery negative terminal and the starter motor ground because now we know we have a good ground there)
Yes, connections on the points side of the relay will all be hard wired and typically use heavier gauge wire (lets call that the load side).
The coil side will be light gauge wires and incorporate push together connectors (lets call that the signal side)
Based on what you say above it sounds like you have a signal and it is the load side we still need to confirm as 100% solid.
Is really really difficult to document the procedure to meter test a motorcycle, but so simple to understand once you have physically seen it done.
:/ Now would be a good time to use the 'call a friend' lifeline, anybody with even hobby level electronics knowledge will do.
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Wheelieboy
Well-known member
I will test resistance and recheck ground in a few days. My bike is stranded at my parents house so I'll probably get to it on Saturday or so.
I was doing additional research on troubleshooting relays and a suggestion was to "jump" the relay and see if the bike starts. Does jumping the relay mean to touch the wires on both the contact points on the relay? the 2 screws that receive signal from the starter? Do I touch the 2 screws together? Or do I attach a wire directly from the battery to the relay screws?
Also, when you guys are saying Solenoid, is that the same thing as the relay itself?
I was doing additional research on troubleshooting relays and a suggestion was to "jump" the relay and see if the bike starts. Does jumping the relay mean to touch the wires on both the contact points on the relay? the 2 screws that receive signal from the starter? Do I touch the 2 screws together? Or do I attach a wire directly from the battery to the relay screws?
Also, when you guys are saying Solenoid, is that the same thing as the relay itself?
Be careful shorting things together if you can't clearly explain what each terminal does. You could let the smoke out. Pics of relay and a description of what you are planning to do may save you some pain.
Trials
Well-known member
'Solenoid' is the term used to describe what most would recognize as an electro magnet.
So a 'Solenoid Relay' is a relay that is activated by an electro magnet circuit.
... as compared to say; a Pressure Relay which might be activated by air pressure or a weighted object.
Your problem is intermittent, so we can assume the starter motor is good and the wires are all connected correctly. What you are looking for is the cause of this hit and miss operating issue. Just shorting the relay won't tell us anything about the relay itself, only that the motor and battery are good.
What we are hoping to find is that the relay is not making a good zero resistance connection on the load side. Which would happen if say for instance, the point contacts inside the relay are burned or melted.
So a 'Solenoid Relay' is a relay that is activated by an electro magnet circuit.
... as compared to say; a Pressure Relay which might be activated by air pressure or a weighted object.
Your problem is intermittent, so we can assume the starter motor is good and the wires are all connected correctly. What you are looking for is the cause of this hit and miss operating issue. Just shorting the relay won't tell us anything about the relay itself, only that the motor and battery are good.
What we are hoping to find is that the relay is not making a good zero resistance connection on the load side. Which would happen if say for instance, the point contacts inside the relay are burned or melted.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Pull the 2 small wires from the relay, jumper 1 to ground(-), the other to power(+). If this reliably spins up the starter (meaning it works time after time) the solenoid and starter are good -- start tracing the other way.
If the starter doesn't spin, short the 2 large posts on the solenoid. If the starter spins the solenoid is shot - if it doesn't, you have a problem with the solenoid to starter wire, starter ground, or the starter itself.
Where do you live? Starting circuits are simple to diagnose for anyone familiar with basic MC wiring. Perhaps a forum member could give you a few minutes.
Trials
Well-known member
Good post, but any particular reason you made it a reply to mine?
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FLSTC
Well-known member
I've annotated the wiring diagram, below.
Advice is to put a jumper wire between the ground wire on the starter relay (black/grey wire) to the battery negative terminal. I've drawn a thick black line for this. Then try the starter button (with ignition on). This would prove or refute the theory of a bad ground wire/connection, especially related to the rear fender mods.
If no luck with that, I'd keep the ground wire jumper in place, then with the negative lead of your voltmeter also on the battery ground, check the points labelled 1, 2, 3, 4 (yellow/green wire) in sequence while pressing the start button. You may get +12V at one point but then it doesn't pass on one of the other components.
The other advice was to add a jumper wire from the positive terminal of the start relay to the positive of the battery. I've drawn a thick red line for this. The starter relay should click and the starter motor activate (make sure you're in neutral, LoL). If this fails, starter relay bad, or starter motor/connections.
Good luck!
Advice is to put a jumper wire between the ground wire on the starter relay (black/grey wire) to the battery negative terminal. I've drawn a thick black line for this. Then try the starter button (with ignition on). This would prove or refute the theory of a bad ground wire/connection, especially related to the rear fender mods.
If no luck with that, I'd keep the ground wire jumper in place, then with the negative lead of your voltmeter also on the battery ground, check the points labelled 1, 2, 3, 4 (yellow/green wire) in sequence while pressing the start button. You may get +12V at one point but then it doesn't pass on one of the other components.
The other advice was to add a jumper wire from the positive terminal of the start relay to the positive of the battery. I've drawn a thick red line for this. The starter relay should click and the starter motor activate (make sure you're in neutral, LoL). If this fails, starter relay bad, or starter motor/connections.
Good luck!
FLSTC
Well-known member
Possibly a faster/easier method considering the correlation with the taillight:
If you were to put your multimeter into resistance (ohms) setting, you could put the leads on the ground wire of the starter relay and the negative battery terminal (where I've drawn that thick black line). You should get a very low reading - some meters beep for such 'continuity' tests.
If you were to get an open or very high resistance reading, then you could wiggle the wiring harness at different spots to see when the ground connection is made. Bringing you close to where the ground wire connection is failing.
If you were to put your multimeter into resistance (ohms) setting, you could put the leads on the ground wire of the starter relay and the negative battery terminal (where I've drawn that thick black line). You should get a very low reading - some meters beep for such 'continuity' tests.
If you were to get an open or very high resistance reading, then you could wiggle the wiring harness at different spots to see when the ground connection is made. Bringing you close to where the ground wire connection is failing.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Judging by the time of my post, coulda been the Willy Nelson, coulda been the wine.
Wheelieboy
Well-known member
So I tried troubleshooting and I got as far as completing the continuity test. I started taking the electrical tape apart from the fender eliminator wires and decided to try to start the bike again. It now starts and I cant get it to fail again.
The only thing I moved was the wires and the connectors. I assume the culprit it somewhere here.
I tried the previous suggestions such as jumping the negative terminals and it appeared to work in terms of starting the bike.
I touched the negative and positive of the relay points and it did not start.
When I did the ohm reading, it was around 0.08 at rest with the bike on, and 0.05 when I pressed the starter button.
I plan on changing the fender eliminator because its pretty ugly so I ordered another one anyways. Could the problem be in the fender eliminator unit itself?
I think from the troubleshooting steps I took today, it appears to be a ground issue somewhere in the fender eliminator/connectors since this is the only thing that I physically moved. That and the connector in the relay. Can I do additional troubleshooting at this point in the “working” state? Or do I have to troubleshoot in the failing state?
The only thing I moved was the wires and the connectors. I assume the culprit it somewhere here.
I tried the previous suggestions such as jumping the negative terminals and it appeared to work in terms of starting the bike.
I touched the negative and positive of the relay points and it did not start.
When I did the ohm reading, it was around 0.08 at rest with the bike on, and 0.05 when I pressed the starter button.
I plan on changing the fender eliminator because its pretty ugly so I ordered another one anyways. Could the problem be in the fender eliminator unit itself?
I think from the troubleshooting steps I took today, it appears to be a ground issue somewhere in the fender eliminator/connectors since this is the only thing that I physically moved. That and the connector in the relay. Can I do additional troubleshooting at this point in the “working” state? Or do I have to troubleshoot in the failing state?
Wheelieboy
Well-known member
In addition, With the ground wire exposed to the fender eliminator, i put the multimeter on resistance setting and I see it at 25 when the bike is running. I think i was using different ohm settings between the last measurement and this measurement. I was toggling between 20M and 2000( with the arrow symbol under it). I honestly dont know what the difference is.
Also, would it hurt to just keep a ground jumper permanently from battery to negative relay?
Also, would it hurt to just keep a ground jumper permanently from battery to negative relay?
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