OpenGambit
Banned
I would take the opinion of a professional over the opinion of someone that just says "why can't we raise the speed limit???" and throws a tantrum.
Increase Ontario 400-series Highway Speed Limit
- Thread starter chrison
- Start date
I would take the opinion of a professional over the opinion of someone that just says "why can't we raise the speed limit???" and throws a tantrum.
...ya ok...lol.
I didn't take civil enginerring in college but with my architecture background I can totally understand what hes referring to. The thickness of the concrete or ashpalt is designed. As is any chemical treatments put into the mix, the depth and grade of the gravel underneath and how the soil is treated below that, whether its packed down to a certain strength which is based on soil engineering results. Look at our highways the DVP is a prime local example of how corners are slanted to help minimizing the amount of steering required to go around the curve. Look at nascar tracks for a more extreme example.
A lot more thought goes into the road system than just "ok slap down a 4 lane highway there and make it asphalt"
I see what Mr. Engineer is referring to and he has brought up a very valid point. Perhaps the roads are designed to handle what they do and any more stress could easily result in roads being ripped up more often for road work. I for one hate having to deal with road work.
Come on....you can't be serious..? Your just trying to be funny now aren't ya?..lol.
Transport trucks and cars pound their way up and down the 401 at speeds over the limit all the time in all kinds of weather, believe me it's designed to handle the impact...lol. Which were just sayin is to legalize the speed limit of 120.
I'll give you the fact the Dvp just might not be able to handle the speeds ....but on a bike it would be awesome.
Transport trucks and cars pound their way up and down the 401 at speeds over the limit all the time in all kinds of weather, believe me it's designed to handle the impact...lol. Which were just sayin is to legalize the speed limit of 120.
I'll give you the fact the Dvp just might not be able to handle the speeds ....but on a bike it would be awesome.
invictus43
Well-known member
The Don Valley and Gardiner are poor examples. Sight distance is a primary consideration when designing highways and that's the limiting factor with those two roadways. The DVP and Gardiner were not designed to the same spec as the 400 series highways, and that's why the limit is lower. Those are probably the worst two highways to pick as an argument for raising the speed limit. 401, 400, yeah, the design speed was higher than the current limit, and vehicles are certainly better than when the spec was set.
As an example, if you're in the left lane on the DVP, turning left, your sight distance may not be very large, perhaps, 50-100m in some spots (think of that giant concrete abutment that forms the footing for the power line tower). Average vehicle takes about 40m to stop from 100kmh. In general, there is a 2 second average reaction time for stopping. Car travels about 28m in one second at 100kmh, or roughly 56m in 2 seconds. So you're looking at about 100m to perform an emergency stop. And that's in dry conditions. So the problem isn't handling or driver skill, it's simply insufficient reaction time and space to stop safely in an emergency.
invictus43
Well-known member
Having said what I did about the design of the DVP and Gardiner..I often say I'd love to hit the DVP without a speed limit in controlled conditions with a nice vehicle..
The thickness of asphalt, etc are designed for the pounding handed out by HEAVY TRUCKS - not cars. The trucks are the predominant factor when it comes to wear on pavement and structures. And even then, the situation is not different in Ontario from what it is elsewhere. I just did interstate 75 north to south and back ... 70 mph speed limit the whole way down into Florida, only exception being Ohio (which has an attitude as messed up as Ontario does) and through cities. The roads in Michigan (70 mph) are horrible, the roads in Kentucky (70 mph) are fine.
It's not unusual, elsewhere in the world, for heavy trucks to have a different speed limit from cars.
My own opinion ...
Daytime 130 km/h on 400 series except through Toronto and maybe Hamilton - 110 km/h there. 110 km/h for the trucks, 110 km/h for anything with 6 or more wheels (i.e. towing), 110 km/h when precipitation warrants using windshield wipers, 110 km/h between sunset and sunrise. Any vehicle limited below the maximum is not allowed in the left lane. Two-lane roads outside built-up areas should be 100 km/h, at least during the daytime. Most of Europe is more or less like this ...
It's not unusual, elsewhere in the world, for heavy trucks to have a different speed limit from cars.
My own opinion ...
Daytime 130 km/h on 400 series except through Toronto and maybe Hamilton - 110 km/h there. 110 km/h for the trucks, 110 km/h for anything with 6 or more wheels (i.e. towing), 110 km/h when precipitation warrants using windshield wipers, 110 km/h between sunset and sunrise. Any vehicle limited below the maximum is not allowed in the left lane. Two-lane roads outside built-up areas should be 100 km/h, at least during the daytime. Most of Europe is more or less like this ...
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Having said what I did about the design of the DVP and Gardiner..I often say I'd love to hit the DVP without a speed limit in controlled conditions with a nice vehicle..
Ride for Heart
invictus43
Well-known member
Ride for Heart
Haha! I've done it a few times and it's pretty cool to ride. The grade on the hills is so low that you almost never feel like you're going uphill..false flat the whole way!
They're not appreciably different from similar roads everywhere else in the world.
When the USA repealed their 55 mph limit, the "think of the children" crowd predicted carnage, which never happened.
Since then, a lot of states have gone to 70 mph, several western states 75 mph, and some roads in Utah and Texas 80 mph (which is about 130 km/h - Germany, Austria, France, Italy, and many others are 130 km/h). Even slow-to-adopt Ohio has increased the speed limit on part of the thruway to 70 mph as a test.
In Europe, commercial vehicles and anything towing a trailer have lower limits in the 80 - 100 km/h range regardless of the posted limit on the road, and they're not allowed to use the left lane when multiple lanes are there.
invictus43
Well-known member
The 400 series highways, as I'm sure you already know
, were designed for speeds greater than 100kmh. I suspect the speed limit could be raised to 120kmh universally on 400 series highways and the accident and fatality rate change would be negligible.The 400 series highways, as I'm sure you already know
I would word it as "statistically insignificant". Calling a fatality negligible even if it's just one can only harm your case.
They were designed for at least 70 mph (plus the engineer's safety margin on top of that) in an era where the average car had 4 wheel drum brakes, no ABS, no stability control, no airbags, and often no seat belts - and when trucks used leaf-sprung suspensions (extremely stiff) rather than the air-ride setups often used nowadays.
No argument that traffic volumes have increased, but so have the number of lanes ... and at the times and places with peak traffic volume, the speed limit is irrelevant anyways and therefore changing it won't make a difference.
No argument that traffic volumes have increased, but so have the number of lanes ... and at the times and places with peak traffic volume, the speed limit is irrelevant anyways and therefore changing it won't make a difference.
invictus43
Well-known member
Fatality rate..not fatality..big difference. I understand your viewpoint though, don't get me wrong.
If you've previously stated that you don't actually think it'd be less safe at 130 than 110 (sorry can't quite remember the number but I hope I'm close), yet you still chose 100, then I kind of don't get it (although I appreciate your negative vote, no sarcasm). Someone that wants to comfortably cruise at 120-140 will not need some scientific numbers to convince them. We just drive and do our best to be safe (yes, some morons will block the left lane and change lane with no blinkers, but heck if OPP wanted to, they'd easily root out such behaviour with high fines to allow us to flow faster and keep the roads safer - rather than constantly focusing on enforcing the speed as if this was the main deadly plague of our roads - quite on the contrary - the GTA roads move rather fast and quite safely as well). And trust me, stats are frequently manipulated, so me showing you numbers makes almost no sense, as you could easily pull some other ones to the contrary (hence I am not, not out of laziness... read my letter on the site, btw for full explanation). The only thing I can tell you is that several jurisdictions have raised limits and found no major effect (listed on www.stop100.ca). But then, search the web and you'll read opposing "findings" as well. So in the end - yes it does come down in great extent to PUBLIC DEMAND displayed on the roads.
If I show you 1000 fb likes in two months, will you give me more credit? Or will you then say facebook is silly and discount it regardless? I have a very limited time (mostly did just two forums), but I can guarantee you I can grow the support to a thousand or more... with enough hours put in (or if I had a "budget"... I could get you tens of thousands...) I personally don't use facebook either, but if anyone has a better idea on how to garnish verifiable support, please state your idea. I have a specific reason to use facebook with the plan for moving this forward (trust me, it ain't stopping here!). But you're partly right - some people just don't care - don't care if they get a ticket or not. Most of us do, and that's why most will support it.
And what's up with this "road design" theory? This is not Aspen or Switzerland - you won't fly off of a curve into a deep valley. FIRST OF ALL - WITH ALL DUE RESPECT - YOU NEED TO GET SOME FACTS RIGHT - 100KM/H WAS NOT SET ON OUR ROADS OUT OF SAFETY - BUT THE OIL EMBARGO! WITH HORRIBLE CARS OF 1976, THE SPEED LIMIT WAS ALREADY 112 KM/H! I know most of us don't remember that, but read up on it. People have always wanted to go faster, that's why many countries have much higher (and often unenforced limits, many in EU) and some are slowly raising theirs - and that's why our OWN 400-s limits have always been raised until 1976 and the oil embargo... (who knows, had it not been for the oil crisis and gas shortages, our limits based on a trend back then might well be 120-130 today!) I personally don't know one person who wants to go slower. With changing cars and technology it is really much safer today to travel at 140 than it was in 1976 at 100... Can you imagine that laughably-easily broken neck at ANY slightest collision since silly headrests were not mostly present back then (made mandatory only in 1969 with many more decades for full implementation??). Really, your car has tenfold greater chances of sparing your life today than 4 decades ago. Yeah yeah more cars, more traffic... come on.... Let's be reasonable. Can you really discount 4 decades worth of safety inventions for greater amount of cars on the roads?
Going back to the "road design" - if you do some research, you'll quickly find out that our very own roads yield almost nothing in quality to German autobahns where no limits are enforced! (on more than 50% of them). Our lanes are wide, surface is smooth, most ramps are quite long (not much shorter, if not longer(!) than many on the autobahn, talk to the people that have been there). So we're talking "safe" Autobahn cruising possible at 200-250 km/h while similar road (or better) here is rated at 125? Come on... I have a feeling if you drove 401 east, 400 north or 407 any direction at 160 you wouldn't feel endangered for a split second (when it comes to your car and the road - don't factor in other drivers for the argument's sake). "Road design" + 1970s cars is a different formula than that same "roads design" with the cars of today. Yes, a HUMAN factor is another story, but that has nothing to do with "road design" per se. The design is permanent - human behaviour can be shaped and improved (education + enforcement).
Read more and support the cause at www.stop100.ca and LIKE us on facebook www.facebook.com/stop100
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It doesn't matter if the cars of the 70s could do it. And of course today's cars are more capable to sustain speeds above 100kph. The fact remains that no politician will endorse this idea. You can fight all you want but no one is going to commit political suicide over the speed limit of a highway. Don't underestimate your advisories here (soccer moms, the hard core conservatives etc) Let me put it to you this way....people have been trying to sell booze in corner stores for years. If you threw up a site to try to allow your neighborhood 7/11 to sell beers, you'd get at least 10x the support and it still wouldn't Matter. Why? Because politicians now that if they get behind it they'll get murdered in the next election. No politician is willing to risk their career by trying to fight the soccer moms, conservatives, environmentalists, engineers, and the people holding pictures of late relative lost in speed related accidents. It's not about logic and about what were already doing.....it's about an mpp's career. That's all
I work with an internationally acknowledged expert on road surfaces who would disagree with you about the comparison between the autobahn and Canadian highways. Just a small point, but a point nonetheless. Just a question too....would you accept a raise to 120 with a zero tolerance level of enforcement a la USA?
That's only true if the majority of voters are against the limit increase. I think the point of his web site and fb page is to demonstrate that it's the other way around.
