Inching towards killing the moto industry in the GTA

[DemonPig]

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I think the flaw in your thesis is that there isn't a huge group of people yearning to jump on motorcycles.

The cost savings you mention are secondary to the lack of functionality for most.

 

[nobbie48]

There have been similar threads but first we have to fix our own problems with us annoying the general public with rides, noise and stupid behavior.

We're the Muslims of the transportation world. A few baddies and we all get the evil eye. What are WE doing about our baddies?

 

[inreb]

I think the flaw in your thesis is that there isn't a huge group of people yearning to jump on motorcycles.

The cost savings you mention are secondary to the lack of functionality for most.

That includes 99% women who don't enjoy grime, stink, cold, hot, wet, dry or helmet head at the best of times. And while they can be seen pushing strollers into crosswalks with nary a glance left or right, don't kid yourself, they don't like pain and suffering much either.

 

[hedo2002]

http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/vehicle_registration/registration_cost/moto.php

one of the bigger deterring factors too is during winter season you are not allowed to ride your motorcycle at all as the winter tire regulation is in place (so from i think mid december to a date in spring)

and yes, i agree with previous posts that public transit is something people can fall back on all the time. and some work can get done. when i compare the costs in the mid to longterm though, paying bike + insurance + maintenance + gear is still less expensive than my daily bus + go transit. god forbid the pricing if/when i have a 2nd car to get to the go station. so far, with one kid, we don't need 2 cars (knock on wood)

but the approximate 350 i pay monthly during the winter months on commuting is less than insurance and gas costs (+ convenience i get out of moto)
and if we look at it, let's be honest, if we look at the Canadian household debt, people don't "afford" a 2nd vehicle, they have the capacity to loan it out and that's it!
In the end as you mentioned a lot of factors go against the ownership of a motorcycle and that become the big deterrent to people owning them.
But if you put enough incentives, (low insurance, greener vehicle rebates -> fuel consumption wise, HOV) people are going to want to switch for the cost savings, and for the time savings.

But as it stands, the gov't doesn't have any interest in that obviously and most of us have a ...hmm.. grim outlook on what possibilities could be put in place to enhance our situation, hence, this thread lol

But the "cost of fuel" is only applicable to smaller CC bikes, and those ridden, (high CC SS's), without a good solid twist of the wrist...lol. Take my vehicles as an example. I commute daily from Oshawa to Thornhill, (approx 65 KM and 45 minutes if I drive/ride outside of "rush hour" via the 401). I drive a 4 cyl G6. I can normally get 500 km on approx $40 - 45. Now my bike is a big assed cruiser, nearly 900 lbs Roadstar 1700cc. If I am keeping it between 100 - 110 km I get approx 225 km for a $15 - 17 fill up. so in my case the fuel economy is vitually identical on both.

I higly doubt we will EVER see the FIBERALS classify motorcycles, (with PERHAPS the exception of new "electric motorcycles" NOT e bikes), as a "green vehicle". It will be interesting to see what kind of range the electric bikes are able to get. But with the way our electricity bills in this province are going, they soon may "cost" as much per fillup as does a gas vehicle...lol.

I don't think we have a "grimm outlook", perhaps just a realistic one. The current FIBERALS are ONLY interested in doing ANYHTING progressive in this province, as long as there is a revenue tool attached to it...

As for the Quebec compassion apples to oranges as you can note that "cost of registration" also includes your insurance costs.

 

[eljay]

I'm talking a few decades. I don't think most people will be able to afford a car by then. The middle class is shrinking.
Our country is keen on boosting population growth without boosting transit alternatives. People are on average getting poorer.
I'd expect once we reach some critical point of gridlock and people are sitting in the July sun on the DVP and watch dozens of Groms whiz past them, that dozens may move to hundreds.
Transit and road planning and driver training here is destined for catastrophic failure as I can tell and our roads will eventually become no-holds-barred get from A to B any way to can f*** everyone else.

You won't nudge people over to our side as long as they can afford a car and have space to park it.
The reality is that most don't care for bikes as cars are way more comfortable, roomy and practical.
When people start families, many get rid of their bikes because they are perceived as a risk.
It is a niche or a hobby, if you prefer. Motorcyclists will never be a dominant force in this country.

BTW, despite earlier claims of ever increasing motorcycle sales, they peaked at 89,000 (including scooters) in 2008 in Canada.
We are way off that peak but there is a small upwards trend recently.

http://www.mmic.ca/content.asp?ContentId=1058

 

[-D-]

Insurance is the deal breaker and will cause current riders to stop riding and prevent new people from starting.

Insurance only increases. It appears the govt. and insurance companies are working together, bikes are a huge liability for the insurance company and a liability for OHIP.

Ahhh this is probably why the govt. deliberately excludes bikes from the HOV lanes because more people would get scooters and bikes to zip around.

 

[Slono]

The Moto industry won't die. I think you'll see a shift in the market towards smaller displacement bikes. Someone once told me that in this hobby you have to "pay to play". This has never been truer.

 

[PrivatePilot]

The Moto industry won't die. I think you'll see a shift in the market towards smaller displacement bikes.

Or different style (read as: non sport) bikes. I just changed insurers on my cruiser (to Dalton Timmis) and am now paying about $65/month, full coverage. I was told to expect <$50/month next year.

My wife, first year riding with a freshly minted M2 will be paying $42/month full coverage.

Clearly, with compromise on your choice and value of bike, it can still be affordable...cheap, even. Someone interested in entering the world of motorcycles and just wants the experience of the wind in their face can very clearly still accomplish that goal, without breaking the bank, assuming they're willing to ride a non sport low cc bike.

The compromise is where most people have problems. So, I agree - When it comes to "I want to ride" vs "I only want to ride a sport bike", it is very much becoming pay to play indeed.

 

[inreb]

The future is one passenger 3 wheel pods with weather protection. Small footprint, low energy.

 

[-JERICHO-]

I'm talking a few decades. I don't think most people will be able to afford a car by then. The middle class is shrinking.
Our country is keen on boosting population growth without boosting transit alternatives. People are on average getting poorer.
I'd expect once we reach some critical point of gridlock and people are sitting in the July sun on the DVP and watch dozens of Groms whiz past them, that dozens may move to hundreds.
Transit and road planning and driver training here is destined for catastrophic failure as I can tell and our roads will eventually become no-holds-barred get from A to B any way to can f*** everyone else.

Its not looking good..

[video=youtube;zBkBiv5ZD7s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBkBiv5ZD7s[/video]

 

[MacDoc]

Insurance is the deal breaker and will cause current riders to stop riding and prevent new people from starting.

Insurance only increases. It appears the govt. and insurance companies are working together, bikes are a huge liability for the insurance company and a liability for OHIP.

Ahhh this is probably why the govt. deliberately excludes bikes from the HOV lanes because more people would get scooters and bikes to zip around.

run out of tin foil??
Ontario is a rip off for most riders but it's getting competitive as well...my insurance cost went down this year on the Wee and CBF1000 as did my 24 year old staff member on FZ6.

Now we both had to get competitive quotes as TDs shot through the roof.

People who want to will ride...move on.

The auto industry is moving towards only 20% of vehicles owned and on demand both driven and driverless....will be fun to confuse the AI.

 

[LePhillou]

But the "cost of fuel" is only applicable to smaller CC bikes, and those ridden, (high CC SS's), without a good solid twist of the wrist...lol. Take my vehicles as an example. I commute daily from Oshawa to Thornhill, (approx 65 KM and 45 minutes if I drive/ride outside of "rush hour" via the 401). I drive a 4 cyl G6. I can normally get 500 km on approx $40 - 45. Now my bike is a big assed cruiser, nearly 900 lbs Roadstar 1700cc. If I am keeping it between 100 - 110 km I get approx 225 km for a $15 - 17 fill up. so in my case the fuel economy is vitually identical on both.

I higly doubt we will EVER see the FIBERALS classify motorcycles, (with PERHAPS the exception of new "electric motorcycles" NOT e bikes), as a "green vehicle". It will be interesting to see what kind of range the electric bikes are able to get. But with the way our electricity bills in this province are going, they soon may "cost" as much per fillup as does a gas vehicle...lol.

I don't think we have a "grimm outlook", perhaps just a realistic one. The current FIBERALS are ONLY interested in doing ANYHTING progressive in this province, as long as there is a revenue tool attached to it...

As for the Quebec compassion apples to oranges as you can note that "cost of registration" also includes your insurance costs.

I personally don't have compassion for them. Yes plates include a PARTIAL amount of the insurance and that amount is a fraction of the MANDATORY insurance people have to get in most canadian jurisdictions. But you still have to deal with a standalone private insurance company to cover the rest of it.

And i feel like if we could follow their model insurance wise, we'd be better off. 500 in plates to govt and 100 in insurance to the private insurer? It's an actual scenario and its the 100$ that changes year after year and that you can shop around for. So the abuse can only be done up to a certain amount of coverage.

And when i talk about an industry "dying" that wealth gap is part of the problem, housing is more expensive than ever compared to salaries, so theres a lot less free income and a lot more lending/debt and the cost of owning a motorcycle isn't getting any cheaper either... that's kind of the idea behind the thread...to discuss all these issues and how they...intertwine with each other

 

[adv_round]

$1000, assuming you are talking 30 years ago, once the calculations for inflation are applied...is a little over $3200.00.

In the vicinity off what many are getting quotes for their SS's, you might notice.

There were no real SS 30 years ago, I'm talking 20+, but regardless your inflation numbers seem high (it should be less than 2k according to my numbers), and nowhere near what insurance is charging today...

 

[fearlessbob]

things could be worse, there are noticeably fewer bikes in quebec. why? bike plates are $1000 per year. i imagine one day ontario politicians will take note of that..

Plates for a SS will cost you around $1100 in Quebec (Quebec has a no fault system, so this $1100 basically pays for what we know as our Accident Benefits), then you add about $300 a year to insure the bike itself. At under $1500 a year, Quebec riders are still faring way better than us.

 

[griff2]

Plates for a SS will cost you around $1100 in Quebec (Quebec has a no fault system, so this $1100 basically pays for what we know as our Accident Benefits), then you add about $300 a year to insure the bike itself. At under $1500 a year, Quebec riders are still faring way better than us.

The Quebec plate registration fee provides basic medical coverage only for people injured in a crash that you are part of, and may not necessarily cover all medical costs for third parties if the crash happens outside of Quebec.

You must also purchase a minimum of $50,000 liability insurance to cover third party property damage in at-fault collisions, and to cover third party medical costs for at-fault crashes occurring outside of Quebec. That $50K won't get you very far though even if all you do is total off someone else's expensive car or truck, never mind if you cause catastrophic injury to someone else, and by Ontario standards leaves you hopelessly under-insured.

Collision/theft/comprehensive is extra on top of all that.

 

[Baggsy]

My first bike, 10 years ago, cost $225 per year to insure.

I am totally apathetic towards supersport road insurance rates.

A supersport is not necessary or required to commute or pleasure ride in the GTA.

Although some seem to think that they are absolutely necessary to ride,
it's a want, not a need, and are priced accordingly.

 

[Drennan57]

My first bike, 10 years ago, cost $225 per year to insure.

I am totally apathetic towards supersport road insurance rates.

A supersport is not necessary or required to commute or pleasure ride in the GTA.

Although some seem to think that they are absolutely necessary to ride,
it's a want, not a need, and are priced accordingly.

I partially agree but the majority of people who buy supersports do it for for the "image" and having others know you are the fastest thing on the road.

Fact of the matter is true supersports are technically the safest motorcycles you can buy. They are made lighter, better brakes, accomplish passes quicker, have better tires etc etc

I would feel safer with experienced riders on supersports all over instead of GS500's clunking around, Ninja 250's screaming down the highway trying to keep up with traffic, scooters running the side of the roads etc.

I understand why supersports are penalized by insurance companies but when you think about it the bikes really have nothing to do with the problem, its the riders that can't control themselves.

 

[inreb]

I partially agree but the majority of people who buy supersports do it for for the "image" and having others know you are the fastest thing on the road.

Is this a fact or an intuitive feeling? Do the majority of people who buy cruisers do it for the "image" and having others know you are the coolest thing on the road? Do the majority of people who buy adventure bikes do it for the "image" and having others know you are the most interesting man on the road? Do the majority of people who buy Burgmans do it for the "image" and having others know you do not desire sex ever again?

 

[Drennan57]

Is this a fact or an intuitive feeling? Do the majority of people who buy cruisers do it for the "image" and having others know you are the coolest thing on the road? Do the majority of people who buy adventure bikes do it for the "image" and having others know you are the most interesting man on the road? Do the majority of people who buy Burgmans do it for the "image" and having others know you do not desire sex ever again?

You must not understand the concept of image.

When a 17 year old kid wants to buy a 150+HP track bike with no intentions of ever actually going to the track there are other factors at play. He even "knows" that its going to cost him 4x as much to ride this bike but he can justify it because it comes with an image of "speed" and "skill" tucked under the seat from the factory.

Same thing goes for Harley guys, in fact I would say its even more of a problem on this side of the spectrum. Some of these guys won't even ride next to you if you aren't on a Harley. Meanwhile they are probably the worst performing, most overpriced chunks of metal on the road. BUT if you ride a Harley you uphold a certain image. So paying all the extra cash for one is basically like paying upfront for a 'membership" that doesn't come with any other bike.

Scooters are completely different. They are "generally" operated by people who are looking for the cheapest means of transportation possible with image being the absolute last thing on their mind. If anything you should commend someone who rides a scooter "by choice" because they obviously don't give a **** what anybody thinks.

 

[inreb]

FZ6R Raven Edition is a good solid choice.

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