That's why you can't "really" do any air-conditioning with an off the grid system right now. Financial feasibility to justify up-front costs, not technological capability, remains a limiting factor. That may change in future as the cost curve comes down, but we're not anywhere near there yet.
Hydro rate HIKES - won't retrofitting buildings cost you MORE
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That's why you can't "really" do any air-conditioning with an off the grid system right now. Financial feasibility to justify up-front costs, not technological capability, remains a limiting factor. That may change in future as the cost curve comes down, but we're not anywhere near there yet.
There is a diminishing return for high tech systems and insulation gives the best bang for the buck. High tech means high cost and high maintenance. Either you do it or you pay someone else.
Passive system have been in use for centuries. However even they need control over the land. Those snazzy solar panels aren't going to do much good if a condo goes up in front of them.
I'm not sure how geothermal reacts to changes in ground water levels.
That's the nice thing about geothermal. The technology is quite simple, basically a glorified, up-sized refrigerator with a water pump.
The geothermal HVAC in my current house has been in place for 10 years and has never needed any servicing short of a vacuuming and filter cleaning. There is a compressor and a water pump and an ECM fan motor, all absolutely trouble-free. No burners, no ignitions systems, no exhaust or intake piping to worry about. This is why I chose geothermal again for the new house.
Geothermal works best when the ground loop is kept wet. That gives the fastest heat transfer from ground heat to loop, and also tends to broaden the effective ground area in contact with the loop as wet soil can draw or release heat from much further away from the loop's piping.
The loop (in the new house under construction) starts in fairly dry high ground but from there heads directly towards a drainage swale that is usually wet most of the year, and from there to a point just short of my shoreline on the St Lawrence River. I can dig deep in my own land right up to the shoreline, but digging down into the river bed itself is "discouraged" for environmental and marine life habitat reasons.
If you are on water, you could float a geothermal piping coil out from shore and sink it to the river bed if the water is deep enough. Unfortunately water levels on the upper St lawrence typically drop by a meter or so from summer to winter, and in winter the water level close to shore is not deep enough to just float out a coil and sink it to the river bottom and still have enough depth to keep well below winter river ice. You also risk damage from boaters dragging anchors if you are in a popular navigable body of water, as I am.
So, mine is a ground loop buried deep in in wet land right next to the shoreline and well below river water level. That loop will always stay wet and should never have heat transfer issues.
I laugh when I see people who think that their water or electrical bills will go down because they spend extra on fancy dryer or LED light bulbs. They never understand they will pay less of an increase, but increase nonetheless, and cry foul because they just spend hundreds extra.
Not much you can do, unless ou are remote and can efford go off the grid. Different ball game then. But better have the t o do it. it's not cheap.
Not much you can do, unless ou are remote and can efford go off the grid. Different ball game then. But better have the t o do it. it's not cheap.
LED lights bulbs are dirt cheap when you but them on sale and using Enersave coupons. $0.99 for 60-watt equivalents the last time I got them at TSC, and they are much better than CFLs, especially in outdoor applications where they are instant on even in the coldest temperatures.
In the end, if you end up paying more but still paying a lot less than the next person who passed on energy use improvements, who is the smart one again?
Ummm....ours did.
3 years ago I started replacing our incandescent bulbs with LED's. The difference in consumption is staggering - our living room is lit by 6 bulbs which used to total 260 watts. Every 4 hours (which would be about an average of how much they're on every day, a little more in the winter) they'd consume 1 kilowatt of electricity.
Now those same 6 bulbs are LED's and total around 40 watts per hour, or 160 watts (less than 1/5th) over a 4 hour period.
We had Halogen track lighting in our kitchen, over 600 watts with the incandescent. Now, about 85 watts.
Our hydro bills went down quite noticeably when we cut several kilowatts of consumption out of our house every single day.
I just invested in a new pool pump as well for this upcoming season - it's a variable speed 2HP model that replaced our old 1.5HP single speed. The old pump used 1800 watts whenever it was on and it had no lower power option. New pump uses 51 watts (!!) at it's lowest setting. Every hour it's running at the low setting (which is still adequate for filtration) I save 1.75 kilowatts.
And yes, I know the underlying argument here is "the less we use the more they jack the rates up", but conservation still pays off - simply look at my numbers above. Unless rates went up several hundred percent (they're not) I'm still way ahead.
Riceburner
Well-known member
What about the cost of the new energy efficient stuff? or were they replacements needed anyways? and/or did they cost more than the non energy efficient stuff?
To answer the original question....retrofitting isn't going to cost you more in utility $$$. Since they raised the rates, every one will pay more per unit of energy, but if you use less energy due to conservation, it will cost you less in relation/ratio than before you conserved.
To answer the original question....retrofitting isn't going to cost you more in utility $$$. Since they raised the rates, every one will pay more per unit of energy, but if you use less energy due to conservation, it will cost you less in relation/ratio than before you conserved.
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You can get LED's for $3 at Dollarama now. Even name brand ones can be bought at retail for well under $10 each now.... $5 or so on sale at worst.
Using peak hydro rates to simplify calculations (about 25c/kwh after usage and delivery fees), a 100 watt bulb costs 25 cents to run for 10 hours (1 kilowatt), or 2.5 cents per hour. Using my earlier 4 hour per day living room lighting situation, 4 hours a day 7 days a week = 28 hours = 70 cents per week.
A 100 watt equivalent LED bulb consumes about 14 watts...burning it for those same 4 hours a day uses 0.05 kilowatt hours, times 7 days - 0.35 KWH = 8 cents per week.
So, every WEEK you SAVE 62 cents...on just that one single bulb.
So, that $3 bulb pays for itself in less than 5 weeks. A little more than a month.
So, even if that cheap LED bulb only lasts 5 years (Brand name ones will easily last 10 and carry warranties for such) it doesn't take a math whiz to show a very big and real money savings even after the up front investment involved in retrofitting your house.
It's a no brainer when you do the math.
When LED's retrofit bulbs still cost $20-$30 each 2-3 years ago the math didn't make anywhere near as much sense, but LED bulbs have crashed in price in the last year and now...no brainer.
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We switched to cfl years ago. I think we've had one bulb break and 2 burn out in 10 years
I've gone CFL on all high use bulbs and will go LED when practical. Now if only there was something to be done about my 3hp hot tub....
I'll never help reduce the 'group' cost of electric power, its out of my control, but minimizing my personal cost is a big priority. I buy cost efficient appliances when i can, gas stove, ovens and dryers.
I'll never help reduce the 'group' cost of electric power, its out of my control, but minimizing my personal cost is a big priority. I buy cost efficient appliances when i can, gas stove, ovens and dryers.
We only use our drier for blankets and sheets. Hang it all indoors in the winter and almost everything outside on the line in summer. When we switch to a propane furnace we will look at getting a propane water heater and stove
eljay
Well-known member
Same here. Big time on the lights.
All 5 of our hallway light fixtures had 4x40w little candle style bulbs. thats 120W per light. New fixtures for $30 from Costco not only don't look like they are from the 70s but are going 28W. And it's like a very warm sunlight effect, rather than a weird candle light. 75% savings on lights, just in hallways. Cost $150. Could have been way cheaper if I didn't change fixtures, but the old ones looked.... old.
Dining room chandelier went from 5x60W = 300W to 5x6W = 30W, then dimmed. Cost less than $10 to change that.
Changed 3 super old toilets (but spent $500 on 1 of them, wife had to have Toto, and $100 on the other two from Costco) and new shower heads saved nearly $50/month on water. Were it not for the luxury toilets, they'd have paid for themselves in a matter of months.
Dishwasher, dryer, washer are next, but that's like $3000 to spend in one shot. Most of the savings will be in water. I'm not too worried about electrical anymore since I'm on solar now and generate significantly more than I consume.
Water and gas are now my biggest bogeymen since the hydro's been tamped down.
If I was doing a new custom build now I'd have solar and grey water systems put in to the designs right from the get go, and insulate the f&&& out of the house. Costs only rise when our province's favored sons are in charge and the cost of implementation is marginal at new build level.
Hawk
Well-known member
Walmart this past week and up to May 1st I think had 10w led bulbs (compare to 60w) for $4.98 AND on the same display were $3.00 off coupons. That's $2 for an led bulb so I bought a bunch of them and very pleased. Bulbs are 3000K warm white much like a normal bulb. I also use 12v led strip lights straight from China (bypass Amazon) that produce amazing light from a one meter strip.
I was told the other day by an engineering company who is responsible for reserve fund audits that this is the biggest FUD in the market. Apparently all the windows guys are fabricating ROE numbers nobody can come close to. Windows are apparently by far the least buck efficient energy retrofit.
Obviously, if you had a malfunctioning window/frame surely you would notice a difference, but on correctly operating, even 20 year old window should be more than good enough. It's all about design/finish/look ... is what the engineer was saying.
Our windows are about 20 years and I have never noticed noise to be a concern. What do you mean by sound reduction?
The primary difference wrt sound transmission will be due to the improved seals on the new windows. It's rare that a glass pack different than 3mm glass/13 air/3 glass is used for residential windows unless someone forces it. That being said, there are large differences in the acoustical performance of windows between manufacturers (and even between lines within a manufacturer) with identical glazing.
Our house was built in 1988 and the builder used the cheapest double pane windows they could dig up. There's literally nothing but 2 individual (not even insulated) panes of glass between us and the outside, and going on 30 years later some of them don't close particularly well anymore. They're on our list to be replaced as soon as we can afford the hit.
My neighbor replaced his a few years ago (he had the same junk originals) and his heating and cooling costs are now about 30-40% below previous levels according to him.
So, one may suggest that windows being the "least buck efficient energy retrofit" is bunk.
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Riceburner
Well-known member
Any one know if the difference is there in terms of insulating quality for regular double pane windows vs ones filled with argon or some other gas? And if it's worth the extra $$$ for the "special" gas filled ones...and if they end up leaking out and become regular after a while?
I thought they were all filled w inert gas and sealed? Otherwise they would fog. Is this like nitrogen in tires where they basically do it anyway but charge you a bunch extra if you ask?
I would ask for a price for warm-edge spacers, they should help a bit (if the price is right).
Minimal as far as insulation value is concerned.
https://www.energyguide.com/info/window2.asp
[TD="bgcolor: #C0C0C0, colspan: 4"] Table 1 – Whole Window U-factors of Sample Windows [/TD]
[TD="width: 33%, bgcolor: #C0C0C0"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 24%, bgcolor: #C0C0C0"]Aluminum frame w/o thermal break[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%, bgcolor: #C0C0C0"]Aluminum frame with thermal break[/TD]
[TD="width: 18%, bgcolor: #C0C0C0"]Wood or Vinyl Frame[/TD]
[TD="width: 33%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]Single Glass[/TD]
[TD="width: 24%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]1.30[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]1.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 18%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]n/a[/TD]
[TD="width: 33%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]Double Glass, ½" air space[/TD]
[TD="width: 24%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.81[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.62[/TD]
[TD="width: 18%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.48[/TD]
[TD="width: 33%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]Double glass, low-e, (E*=0.2), ½" air space[/TD]
[TD="width: 24%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.70[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.52[/TD]
[TD="width: 18%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.39[/TD]
[TD="width: 33%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]Double glass, low-e, (E*=0.1), ½" air space[/TD]
[TD="width: 24%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.67[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.49[/TD]
[TD="width: 18%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.37[/TD]
[TD="width: 33%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]Double glass, low-e, (E*=0.2), ½" space with argon[/TD]
[TD="width: 24%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.64[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.46[/TD]
[TD="width: 18%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.34[/TD]
[TD="width: 33%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]Triple glass, low-e, on two panes, ½" paces with argon[/TD]
[TD="width: 24%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.53[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.36[/TD]
[TD="width: 18%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 33%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]Quadruple glass, low-e (E=.01) on two panes, ¼" spaces with krypton[/TD]
[TD="width: 24%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]n/a[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]n/a[/TD]
[TD="width: 18%, bgcolor: #ffffff"]0.22[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #C0C0C0, colspan: 4"]*E is the emittance of the low-e coated surface.[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #C0C0C0, colspan: 4"]Source: 1993 ASHRAE Handbook: Fundamentals, (Atlanta, GA:American Society of Heating, Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning Engineers, Incorporated, 1993).Note: These are example of whole window U-factors of 3 ft x 5 ft windows. U-factors vary somewhat with window size. Ask the dealer for the specific values for the window you are looking at.
[/TD]
