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Humboldt Broncos

JavaFan said:
.....so while a person may be able to take the training and pass the test
there is something major lacking that someone who grew up ion Canada has built in
regardless of what race they are
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Nope, don't buy that. Not saying there aren't influences, but as an adult you learn and adapt. When I visited the UK, I would always look left then right when crossing the road. Bad idea. Adapted to looking right then left after a short while.

If anything, learning to drive in an unruly location should make you more attentive to the road. The guy was just an idiot. Can't blame it on his youth experience. It's not like he just got here and jumped into a truck. I gather he's lived here a while (student visa) and got trained here and licenced here. So, lots of time to acclimatize.
 
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again, was not referring to the bus crash
just because the trucker has a Sikh name
I do not assume he is an immigrant

for all I know he was born here
his family could quite easily have been here longer than mine

there's a town in lower BC called Merritt, very nice little spot
core economic activity is a sawmill, started decades ago by Sikh immigrants
ever seen western redneck Sikhs ? it's kinda neat

and those lads know how to drive, logging trucks
and the giant tired pickups that westerners love

so you and aren't going to agree on this, RB, that's cool
but I'm positive when someone starts operating a motor vehicle for the fist time as an adult
they are going to have a much longer learning curve than a kid that grew up riding in the family car
 
Yes and no. My mother learned to drive in her 50s. I do the driving if I'm in the car with her. My kids haven't started driving yet, so can't say, but I'd probably do the driving if I'm with them till they have many years of experience. Just did the first driving lesson for one kid. Can't say they picked up anything being passengers. Though I will say that it's said younger minds learn easier. I started driving late, was already in my 20s.
 
All i know is, been seeing a lot of truck accidents and related deaths this past year, insurance in brampton is really high for a reason, and a LOT of truckers these days are from a certain part of india(I know a few), just like this fellow in the news.

You connect the dots.

This is less about immigration, and more about the nonchalant attitude a lot of these guys seem to have when driving big rigs, they dont understand that if they do stupid **** or **** up, people die.

I'm certain 2nd gen drivers would do a lot better. Maybe this is because they have more practice on Canadian roads?

Its an easy mistake to make, to confuse pointing out their lack of experience on canadian roads with racism.

Regardless, the point stands, they need to make it hard to get those AZ licenses. Do a better job with training, licensing, regulation.
 
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bigpoppa said:
......Regardless, the point stands, they need to make it hard to get those AZ licenses. Do a better job with training, licensing, regulation.
Click to expand...

Big +1


...I'm not completely disagreeing with points before. Language etc. should be adopted if you want to come here to live. Not saying you can't do your own thing, but don't come here and try to change our norms. oops, not meaning to threadjack.
 
JavaFan said:
while not directly related to this story, which is an awful one
immigration certainly plays a role in reduced road safety

now before anyone accuses me of being a racist, again
it has nothing to do with race, it has to do with where you grew up

growing up in Canada, you are in the family car from about the age of 2 days onward
you are in the family car constantly, observing, as you get older start asking questions
when you turn 16 you start driving, after having been in the family car every day, on Canadian roads

many people that come here as adults did not have that background
due to economic factors - nothing to do with race, they did not have a family car
or if they did, many come from places with little to no traffic rules, I've lived in a few of these places

so while a person may be able to take the training and pass the test
there is something major lacking that someone who grew up ion Canada has built in
regardless of what race they are
Click to expand...
I agree. It's pretty simple to prove this out in the GTA, look at the insurance heat map for Brampton and Markham -- both rich in new Canadians that come from places where driving is either done for you or driving is lawless. Then drive through these centers -- it's scary.
 
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Riceburner said:
Big +1


...I'm not completely disagreeing with points before. Language etc. should be adopted if you want to come here to live. Not saying you can't do your own thing, but don't come here and try to change our norms. oops, not meaning to threadjack.
Click to expand...

some immigrants have it easier than others
we arrived here in '67 and my parents spent almost no effort to integrate
their friends were entirely people from 'back home"

coming from a "founding culture" certainly makes it easier
but I see no problem with allowing people to take a DL test in their mother tongue
whatever that may be, it's the comprehension that's the important part

Brampton guys: do they still have CaraBram?
was a big part of my childhood
my Dad's band played there every year
wearing kilts and all that other *****

was a fun time to wander around and see the different costumes
and try some food that has flavour, Scottish food is a bit bland!
 
Yes but I've never actually been.

Is it like the Caribana?
 
JavaFan said:
some immigrants have it easier than others
we arrived here in '67 and my parents spent almost no effort to integrate
their friends were entirely people from 'back home"

coming from a "founding culture" certainly makes it easier
but I see no problem with allowing people to take a DL test in their mother tongue
whatever that may be, it's the comprehension that's the important part

Brampton guys: do they still have CaraBram?
was a big part of my childhood
my Dad's band played there every year
wearing kilts and all that other *****

was a fun time to wander around and see the different costumes
and try some food that has flavour, Scottish food is a bit bland!
Click to expand...

Great post.Thanks.
 
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bigpoppa said:
Regardless, the point stands, they need to make it hard to get those AZ licenses. Do a better job with training, licensing, regulation.
Click to expand...

Maybe one of our resident truckers can lay out the pay scale but deregulation has slashed shipping cost by opening the doors to any one at any price. IIRC the driver on a pay per mile basis gets about 50 cents or less per mile. At 60 MPH that's $30 an hour, an OK wage.

However it's virtually impossible to average 60 MPH. If you average 40 MPH it's $20 an hour so not going to attract highly skilled people. Sitting to get loaded and off loaded is unpaid. They only way to make a bigger paycheck is to max out the hours.

The $20 an hour is a move up for a person with language issues and who's only other option is a sweat shop at minimum wage for 40 hours a week.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not in the business but get the impression that trucking has gone Walmart
 
^ The race to the bottom won't help matters.

Still ... Training and licensing needs to get fixed. If that means fewer drivers are able to get a license, the shortage of supply will take care of the race to the bottom eventually.
 
The courts and justices have consistently lowered the bar for reasonable driving conduct. There's very little accountability at this time and only the most egregious cases have successful prosecutions.

A momentary lapse of attention does not constitute a marked departure from the standard of care (of a prudent driver), even if it kills people by blowing a stop sign or light at an intersetion, is an unsafe left hand turn, etc. Motorcyclists and cyclists have borne the brunt of this for many years. Kill someone and it's a $200 ticket. Even an inattentive dangerous police U-turn in the GTA a few years back where a motorcyclist was nearly killed was not prosecuted. No accountability out there.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/humboldt-crash-charges-arguments-opinion-1.4738013
 
deregulation started the race to the bottom. But we bottomed out. Frieght rates are now at an all time high, what they cant cover with frieght they pad with a fuel surcharge, your frt rate didnt change, your now just paying a $480 fuel surcharge on a load from Mtl to Hamilton.
The new electronic logging means the driver looses billable kms, while waiting for load/ unloading, so your paying a higher rate, somebody has to cover the cost of standing around. Gone are the days of fudging the log books.

So you have a small fleet, good drivers with a nice clean abstract sheet, and pay a living wage and maintain your trucks. A group modeled after a Canada Cartage style comes in and says , we'll provide the trucks and drivers, do your milk run route, you just just out of the headache of being your own broker. And they compete with volume on fleets and new drivers that wouldn't be driving if not for that type of gig, they dont have the experience.

There is already too few drivers, frieght costs are on the moon. But it doesn't make for better drivers. And testing and licensing wont help the fact our roads are clogged, most drive too fast to bill as many kms as possible in time allowed, and you can make similar money shunting in a container yard or becoming the lube guy at a big terminal as spending your days in the cab on the hiway.
 
crankcall said:
deregulation started the race to the bottom. But we bottomed out. Frieght rates are now at an all time high, what they cant cover with frieght they pad with a fuel surcharge, your frt rate didnt change, your now just paying a $480 fuel surcharge on a load from Mtl to Hamilton.
The new electronic logging means the driver looses billable kms, while waiting for load/ unloading, so your paying a higher rate, somebody has to cover the cost of standing around. Gone are the days of fudging the log books.

So you have a small fleet, good drivers with a nice clean abstract sheet, and pay a living wage and maintain your trucks. A group modeled after a Canada Cartage style comes in and says , we'll provide the trucks and drivers, do your milk run route, you just just out of the headache of being your own broker. And they compete with volume on fleets and new drivers that wouldn't be driving if not for that type of gig, they dont have the experience.

There is already too few drivers, frieght costs are on the moon. But it doesn't make for better drivers. And testing and licensing wont help the fact our roads are clogged, most drive too fast to bill as many kms as possible in time allowed, and you can make similar money shunting in a container yard or becoming the lube guy at a big terminal as spending your days in the cab on the hiway.
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I've seen some YouTube semi tip overs and it would appear that the loaders aren't physics majors either.
 
A lawsuit has been launched by one of the families (which was expected). The interesting part for me was "The claim says the bus was not manufactured to sustain the impact of the collision, citing that the roof broke off during the crash, which resulted in the occupants of the bus being ejected." I thought that the fire department had cut the roof off to gain access and then first responders pulled patients over between the vehicles to work on them. No wonder things turned out so terribly, the whole bus opened up on its own and at least half the team flew and/or tumbled at least 50'.

https://www.680news.com/2018/07/10/humboldt-broncos-lawsuit/
 
A lawsuit will open a can of worms that may or may not uncover safety defects. Without the suit the possible problem is never methodically discussed. To my knowledge seat belts aren't required in buses. Would it make a big difference if one was thrown clear or rattled around in the bus?

If we're talking surviving a crash of magnitude look at the yellow school buses. Tin cans compared to highway coaches.

My personal knee jerk opinion is that safety money would get a bigger bang for its buck if it was largely aimed at driver skills.

FWIW I lost a friend who was crushed when the bus in which he was a passenger rolled over. He was partially ejected through a window and then crushed. Everyone else was OK.
 
GreyGhost said:
A lawsuit has been launched by one of the families (which was expected). The interesting part for me was "The claim says the bus was not manufactured to sustain the impact of the collision, citing that the roof broke off during the crash, which resulted in the occupants of the bus being ejected." I thought that the fire department had cut the roof off to gain access and then first responders pulled patients over between the vehicles to work on them. No wonder things turned out so terribly, the whole bus opened up on its own and at least half the team flew and/or tumbled at least 50'.

https://www.680news.com/2018/07/10/humboldt-broncos-lawsuit/
Click to expand...

unusual strategy, or maybe not?

making a case that the bus was defective may limit the amount of liability to the trucking Co and driver?
but it's probably the party with the most ability to pay a settlement
bus Co and trucking Co probably have insurance that will max out well short of the damages
and I expect them both to go bankrupt
 
JavaFan said:
unusual strategy, or maybe not?

making a case that the bus was defective may limit the amount of liability to the trucking Co and driver?
but it's probably the party with the most ability to pay a settlement
bus Co and trucking Co probably have insurance that will max out well short of the damages
and I expect them both to go bankrupt
Click to expand...

Trucking company already did. The owner spun up a new company with his other truck as their was an extended government hold on the original company doing business.
 
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