How Long Can Economic Reality Be Ignored?

[PrivatePilot]

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I can't find nearly enough good employees and have more work than we can handle. Like Brian said if you want to work with your hands there is a huge glut of work and no reason whatsoever to be unemployed.

Too many kids coming out of highschool expecting the moon, and then complaining about the wage that their lack of education provides them when they get their minimum wage job. Minimum wage jobs are not designed to be careers, but that's lost on some. Get an education, even a basic one - my son for example took a 1 year welding foundations course and is now working in the industry for 50% over minimum wage...to start. In a few short years he'll be in the $25+/Hour braket and it can only go up from there. Meanwhile, McBurgerGuy who barely made it past grade 12 (after 5-6 years of trying) is expecting $15/hour.

Don't get me started on the kids who go to 4 or 5 years of university to get an arts or philosophy degree only to somehow magically discover that both have minimum wage earning potential, if any at all.

In short, I agree... get some education for where there's work to be had and stop complaining. There IS good paying work out there but some can't see the forest for the trees.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5611218-ontario-employers-cashing-in-on-temporary-workers/

Maybe I can dig out my old pay stubs if you want more proof. This is what the labour market is now. You go in as a temp, but stay that way for years. Working 40-60 hour weeks for almost minimum wage, but right beside someone full-time doing the EXACT same job. However they're being paid 3x as much because they started before Dalton-Wynne when companies actually had to hire people.

On this I will agree - too many companies out there with permanent temps...however, again...as per my earlier reply - get the FACTS. Dalton or Wynne had nothing to do with this whatsoever, so I don't know where you're getting that from - back in the late 90's I worked for a large trucking company (that still exists, and probably still does the exact same thing nearly 20 years later) that had ZERO drivers actually employed by them. Instead, by the hundreds, we were employed through driver services. This is not a new practice, but I will agree it is one that needs to stop - companies don't want to hire direct to avoid a lot of the attachments that come with it, and that's wrong.

 

[Blackfin]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5611218-ontario-employers-cashing-in-on-temporary-workers/

Maybe I can dig out my old pay stubs if you want more proof. This is what the labour market is now. You go in as a temp, but stay that way for years. Working 40-60 hour weeks for almost minimum wage, but right beside someone full-time doing the EXACT same job. However they're being paid 3x as much because they started before Dalton-Wynne when companies actually had to hire people. My current employer does this. Yes I got in, but it still bothers me that they string temps along with the promise of future jobs that won't happen.

Thanks for the link. Doesn't really prove your claims of "most people" working 2-3 jobs or "very few" Ontarians holding FT jobs but does raise an eyebrow, at least.

May I ask "got in" where, doing what? My particular company can't find programmers and design engineers so FT positions go wanting and projects are delayed because we can't find talent. We do, however, use temp agencies to fill unskilled or transient positions in production or when doing things like inventory or when we need to move parts of the shop around. That just makes sense nowadays.

This isn't a Dalton/Wynne thing. "This is what the labour market is now" is correct, to a degree, but it's not any one party or politician's fault. Instead, fault labour -- especially unskilled and unionized -- for being greedy and expensive and CEOs for addressing the expense issue by automating, outsourcing/offshoring and/or resorting to temp agencies.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Instead, fault labour -- especially unskilled and unionized -- for being greedy and expensive and CEOs for addressing the expense issue by automating, outsourcing/offshoring and/or resorting to temp agencies.

Disagree. Companies spend MORE money on a typical hourly basis to hire temps. Hell, a lot of agencies are charging the companies 50% (and sometimes 100% in the case of skilled labor) vs what the actual employee would be getting paid if they worked there directly.

What the companies "gain" is zero ties. If work slows down they simply call the agency and say they simply don't need a percentage of their workforce anymore. No pesky EI paperwork, no pesky phone calls recalling people or offering alternate work. If you need to layoff permanently, oh look...no severance!

When things pick up, hey...call that agency and order everyone back, or send new ones. Easy peasy!

No worry about pensions. No benefit hassles. Hurt at work? Yeah, talk to your agency about all that, the paperwork is a nightmare and the stats look bad on us as the company, but hey, you don't actually work for us, so our hands are clean!

Oh, you wanted vacation? Yeah, NO - and if you don't show up for work on those few days you wanted we'll penalize you by calling your agency and having you replaced.

It's THAT sort of crap that drives companies to hire perma-temps. The money savings seldom come into play.

 

[Blackfin]

Disagree. Companies spend MORE money on a typical hourly basis to hire temps. Hell, a lot of agencies are charging the companies 50% (and sometimes 100% in the case of skilled labor) vs what the actual employee would be getting paid if they worked there directly.

What the companies "gain" is zero ties. If work slows down they simply call the agency and say they simply don't need a percentage of their workforce anymore. No pesky EI paperwork, no pesky phone calls recalling people or offering alternate work. If you need to layoff permanently, oh look...no severance!

When things pick up, hey...call that agency and order everyone back, or send new ones. Easy peasy!

No worry about pensions. No benefit hassles. Hurt at work? Yeah, talk to your agency about all that, the paperwork is a nightmare and the stats look bad on us as the company, but hey, you don't actually work for us, so our hands are clean!

Oh, you wanted vacation? Yeah, NO - and if you don't show up for work on those few days you wanted we'll penalize you by calling your agency and having you replaced.

It's THAT sort of crap that drives companies to hire perma-temps. The money savings seldom come into play.

Actually, the way you're describing things there money still plays a huge role in why companies are doing this. Hourly-wages are only a part of the overall cost of employees. You said it: pensions, benefits, insurance, injury claims, paperwork & logistics, vacation etc. I'm sure that company CFOs are looking at things like the opportunity cost of having FT unskilled people around, how that affects flexibility and how that affects the bottom line.

As I said, labour is expensive. If the job you're doing can be done by anyone walking in off the street & being trained for 5 minutes you're likely going to be perma/temp'd out. If you bring unique skills (e.g. robotics, integration, autonomy, sensors, regulatory agency experience, embedded hardware design, power systems design etc etc etc) the cost to bring you in is more than made up for by the products the company is able to produce -- with your talent -- and market.

 

[j2]

I'm pretty sure the 71,000 Canadians that lost their full time jobs in July would disagree with you.

It's bad. Our company has lost 75% of its employees in 6 months. Some jobs went to Vancouver but most went to the US.

The only thing out there are part time McJobs.

 

[ZX600]

Travel a little

 

[Neil_V]

If you think Hillary is a progressive, you haven't been paying attention.

This!

Anyway, lots of left v right, this party v that... A whole lot of none problems in terms of the overriding economic and humanitarian issues most countries are faced with. The way I see it, the only way to return to true prosperity for the people is the elimination of the privately owned central banks, which nearly every country in the world are indebted to.

A good start if you have never really explored how these institutions operate

[video=youtube;5IJeemTQ7Vk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk[/video]

 

[RockerGuy]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5611218-ontario-employers-cashing-in-on-temporary-workers/

Maybe I can dig out my old pay stubs if you want more proof. This is what the labour market is now. You go in as a temp, but stay that way for years. Working 40-60 hour weeks for almost minimum wage, but right beside someone full-time doing the EXACT same job. However they're being paid 3x as much because they started before Dalton-Wynne when companies actually had to hire people. My current employer does this. Yes I got in, but it still bothers me that they string temps along with the promise of future jobs that won't happen.

I was a temp for a good 3 yrs. However, I got to learn a trade without spending $$. Some agencies out there are willing to lie to get employees on the job. Promising to hire you full time in 6mths & keep lying to you when you ask them. I am glad I just took my experience & leave. It's a dog eat dog world out there

 

[yodude]

It will stay this way for as long as the Liberals are in power in Canada. Turdo is the press fave and they just can't get enough of him. All I ever see is fluff and puff stories about him. What was the latest? Crashing a wedding with no shirt on? Stupid.

Canada's exports have fallen into an abysmal pit over the last year. Our trade deficit with the U.S. is monstrous. The money deficit is even bigger. If anyone should be cancelling NAFTA it's Canada. But what are we hearing? Olympic BS, Trump hate, and Tardo with no shirt. That's the "depth" of the lazy and stupid Canadian news media.

whatever, anything is better than helmet cut harpo ..good riddance

 

[nobbie48]

Re the OP read "Limits to Growth." We're screwed and it can't be fixed. At best we can pick what tree we're going to run into a few decades down the road.

 

[crankcall]

That's the "depth" of the lazy and stupid Canadian news media.

I'd counter with, the media isn't lazy or stupid. They only get paid by advertisers, nobody pays much to read an indepth research article. The ads and attached video and scrolling banners pay the bills. So they give us what we want.
Its the decline of interested and informed engaged readers and viewers. Pokemon Go gets more attention than the senate scams that are still continuing.
20 years ago having a picture of yourself on your desk was just weird, now its selfies all day. Its not the media, its us.

 

[PLau]

I'm much more concerned with what's happening in Ontario and Canada then the crapshoot that is the American election. This province has been dragged into the mud by the liberals and nobody seems to care. Wynne will likely win another election due to the conservatives constantly being painted by the media as the "rich white old man vote" by focusing on fringe social issues instead of jobs and finances. Very few Ontarians have steady full-time jobs, and as 99CBRF4 pointed out the number continues to dwindle. Most people work 2-3 part times jobs every day or are "permanent temps", going and doing what used to be a full-time job but now for minimum wage without benefits, holidays or any job security. I know because I was in that world for years. All I expect out of Wynne is an increase in the price of everything and taxes which will be completely wasted.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5611218-ontario-employers-cashing-in-on-temporary-workers/

Maybe I can dig out my old pay stubs if you want more proof. This is what the labour market is now. You go in as a temp, but stay that way for years. Working 40-60 hour weeks for almost minimum wage, but right beside someone full-time doing the EXACT same job. However they're being paid 3x as much because they started before Dalton-Wynne when companies actually had to hire people. My current employer does this. Yes I got in, but it still bothers me that they string temps along with the promise of future jobs that won't happen.

Sounds like a blanket statement being made based on your own personal situation and people that you're surrounded which you're blaming the government for.

Just recently coming out of school 2 years ago, yes, it was hard to land a good full-time permanent job because I didn't have enough experience. That isn't to say that it was impossible.
I, myself have been an "independent contractor" (which didn't last very long cause I felt the way I was being treated wasn't right. By that I mean, working full-time hours, underpaid for the job, no benefits, and worst of all, pay was always about 1.5 months late/delayed).
The people I worked with were in the same situation but did not have hope or intent of moving on and upgrading themselves. They kept with what they had while barely scraping by. Those co-workers had been working the same job/position for years, many without seeing a raise after working 5+ years while earning a barley livable income, while I left within 3 months.

I always envied my friends and their full-time jobs with great pay and benefits and wondered why I was stuck in the position I was in and how the job market sucked. Now, in my eyes, I see that Most of the people I know do have full time positions, and many of them work for companies that are looking for workers in full-time positions. I personally don't know anyone working multiple part-time jobs, and only know a couple people working part time jobs.

It sounds like you're in a position where you don't like your job with little to no job security and working unfair hours as a temp. The question is, while you're working as a temp, are you actively searching for something more stable? How much time are you actually spending to get out of the current situation you're in? Most of the people I see in temp work don't put in the effort to get themselves out of that situation and soley rely on an employment agency to do all the work (where they find you temp positions while taking a cut every time they find you a new placement).

 

[backmarkerducati]

Sounds like a blanket statement being made based on your own personal situation and people that you're surrounded which you're blaming the government for.

Just recently coming out of school 2 years ago, yes, it was hard to land a good full-time permanent job because I didn't have enough experience. That isn't to say that it was impossible.
I, myself have been an "independent contractor" (which didn't last very long cause I felt the way I was being treated wasn't right. By that I mean, working full-time hours, underpaid for the job, no benefits, and worst of all, pay was always about 1.5 months late/delayed).
The people I worked with were in the same situation but did not have hope or intent of moving on and upgrading themselves. They kept with what they had while barely scraping by. Those co-workers had been working the same job/position for years, many without seeing a raise after working 5+ years while earning a barley livable income, while I left within 3 months.

I always envied my friends and their full-time jobs with great pay and benefits and wondered why I was stuck in the position I was in and how the job market sucked. Now, in my eyes, I see that Most of the people I know do have full time positions, and many of them work for companies that are looking for workers in full-time positions. I personally don't know anyone working multiple part-time jobs, and only know a couple people working part time jobs.

It sounds like you're in a position where you don't like your job with little to no job security and working unfair hours as a temp. The question is, while you're working as a temp, are you actively searching for something more stable? How much time are you actually spending to get out of the current situation you're in? Most of the people I see in temp work don't put in the effort to get themselves out of that situation and soley rely on an employment agency to do all the work (where they find you temp positions while taking a cut every time they find you a new placement).

Much easier to be the victim and for it to be a grand conspiracy and someone else's fault. Poor choice in education or none at all. Too lazy to hit the bricks and to be looking. Poor choice in career path. Don't like it, change paths--better results than "woe is me."

We, like many have stated here, are having a hard time filling full time positions. Major shortages in people in some areas of the economy. Economics 101, supply and demand.

 

[RockerGuy]

I switched jobs every 6mths when I was with an agency. Simply because I know the agency is not going to bump up my pay with experience. Plus some of them lie explaining I will be permanent.

If I spend 2-3 yrs at this company I can probably find something with really good pay.

 

[LePhillou]

Everybody blaming red team or blue team.. in the end they don't really matter.

Cause each time you change, you get more of the same ******** of "oh it wouldn't happen under X governance" but even though we keep flippity floppiting its like we're goldfish.

Corporations keep making more money, more poverty happens, less stability happens, it's the usual shitshow and it keeps getting worse.

 

[smc]

Dalton or Wynne had nothing to do with this whatsoever, so I don't know where you're getting that from - back in the late 90's

I'm too young to remember anything political pre-Dalton. But even if Wynne isn't the cause, she's also not the solution.

Thanks for the link. Doesn't really prove your claims of "most people" working 2-3 jobs or "very few" Ontarians holding FT jobs but does raise an eyebrow, at least.

May I ask "got in" where, doing what? My particular company can't find programmers and design engineers so FT positions go wanting and projects are delayed because we can't find talent. We do, however, use temp agencies to fill unskilled or transient positions in production or when doing things like inventory or when we need to move parts of the shop around. That just makes sense nowadays.

I didn't have a lot of time to look up links I get up at 4am for work, but I have read that the number of part-time and temp jobs has increased substantially this century. I don't want to say what I do, nothing exciting though. I actually have a college education in programming, but couldn't find much work when I graduated in 2008 and needing money went to work for the agencies.

Nothing wrong with bringing in temps for a job that will last a week. When you're "employed" at the same workplace for 2 years and trained to do every job in there and they still won't give you the time of day, something is broken. I've been to places were everyone was a temp, even the supervisors and the skilled jobs. That's the future.

pensions, benefits, insurance, injury claims, paperwork & logistics, vacation etc.

These items are what I blame the government for, not updating the labour code. Allowing temps to exist in some grey second-class area. If you've worked 50 40-hour weeks you should be able to get a vacation day and still have a job. Unfortunately the government considers sitting at home unpaid waiting for the agency to call you as being employed, when it's not.

Some agencies out there are willing to lie to get employees on the job. Promising to hire you full time in 6mths & keep lying to you when you ask them.

Yeah I figured out their game after a couple years. Now I try and warn the temps I work with.

Sounds like a blanket statement being made based on your own personal situation and people that you're surrounded which you're blaming the government for.

It sounds like you're in a position where you don't like your job with little to no job security and working unfair hours as a temp.

Yes a lot of what I said is based on my own experience. I've only had low-class "blue collar" jobs and the people around me are often less educated and work(ed) several McJobs.

I don't blame the government for any of that though. I blame them for allowing temp agencies to be a means for employers to skirt around the Ontario labour laws. Those laws were put in place for everyone and they need updating. My argument isn't that McBurgerGuy should make $15/hr, I think he deserves to stay at $12, but I do believe he should know what his hours will be next week.

I'm not a temp anymore, but you're close about the reason I dislike my position. Even as a full-time employee I have zero job security. It wasn't always this way though, just the last couple months.

 

[RockerGuy]

I'm too young to remember anything political pre-Dalton. But even if Wynne isn't the cause, she's also not the solution.



I didn't have a lot of time to look up links I get up at 4am for work, but I have read that the number of part-time and temp jobs has increased substantially this century. I don't want to say what I do, nothing exciting though. I actually have a college education in programming, but couldn't find much work when I graduated in 2008 and needing money went to work for the agencies.

Nothing wrong with bringing in temps for a job that will last a week. When you're "employed" at the same workplace for 2 years and trained to do every job in there and they still won't give you the time of day, something is broken. I've been to places were everyone was a temp, even the supervisors and the skilled jobs. That's the future.



These items are what I blame the government for, not updating the labour code. Allowing temps to exist in some grey second-class area. If you've worked 50 40-hour weeks you should be able to get a vacation day and still have a job. Unfortunately the government considers sitting at home unpaid waiting for the agency to call you as being employed, when it's not.



Yeah I figured out their game after a couple years. Now I try and warn the temps I work with.



Yes a lot of what I said is based on my own experience. I've only had low-class "blue collar" jobs and the people around me are often less educated and work(ed) several McJobs.

I don't blame the government for any of that though. I blame them for allowing temp agencies to be a means for employers to skirt around the Ontario labour laws. Those laws were put in place for everyone and they need updating. My argument isn't that McBurgerGuy should make $15/hr, I think he deserves to stay at $12, but I do believe he should know what his hours will be next week.

I'm not a temp anymore, but you're close about the reason I dislike my position. Even as a full-time employee I have zero job security. It wasn't always this way though, just the last couple months.

Keep changing jobs until you find something. Don't believe the BS that job jumping is bad. It is good. Getting to know what you like & seeing which company is good. I've had so many different jobs, I've lost track. There will be something you're good at. If you're single search a wider area

 

[short stop]

I can also vouch for GOOD, permanent jobs being available. I work for a municipality, and there are always job postings. I know everyone likes to poo-poo on the public service for our benefits, pension, etc. But why not just APPLY for a job there instead of complaining about how good others have it?

 

[PrivatePilot]

But why not just APPLY for a job there instead of complaining about how good others have it?

Because this.

Much easier to be the victim and for it to be a grand conspiracy and someone else's fault. Poor choice in education or none at all. Too lazy to hit the bricks and to be looking. Poor choice in career path. Don't like it, change paths--better results than "woe is me."

It sounds like you're in a position where you don't like your job with little to no job security and working unfair hours as a temp. The question is, while you're working as a temp, are you actively searching for something more stable? How much time are you actually spending to get out of the current situation you're in? Most of the people I see in temp work don't put in the effort to get themselves out of that situation and soley rely on an employment agency to do all the work (where they find you temp positions while taking a cut every time they find you a new placement).

That's very much a big part of the problem. Go get the easiest position possible with the least amount of effort (temp agency), get stuck in dead end job, complain. Do nothing to better ones position. Complain. Get stuck in rut, complain some more about how there's "no good jobs out there".

There ARE good paying jobs out there and many of them don't even need a whole lot of formal education - the trades, for example....but yeah, that requires some effort and commitment to actually getting that little bit of education, so people return to the vicious "my job sucks, bad pay, no future, there's no good jobs out there!" rut.

 

[short stop]

I don't doubt that the workplace trend is leaning towards less secure employment, permanent jobs being swapped out for part-time, contract positions that allow employers to save money by foregoing benefits (and pensions are nearly unheard of unless it's government). But...they still exist. But my anecdotal experience tells me that people may need to start as part-time or contract before they can secure a permanent position.

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