Housing during SARS-CoV-2 lockdown, before, during and after - Renting vs Owning

[crankcall]

I dont like condo fees, however my Moms is $700ish , heat , A/C, electric and water, indoor parking, pool, nice common garden and cable TV package. Its probably not far off the cost of carrying a house. But they did get the 15K assesment when the parking garage roof failed. Which would be like me shingling the old house we had so maybe a wash. There is often value in condo fees.

Until you have security and concierge to pay, then its gets goofy.

 

[mimico_polak]

Alot of own vs. rent talk. What about the people who for some unknown reason, willingly make the decision to do both? I just don't understand it. What possesses a person, to spend hundreds of thousands(maybe over a million depending on location) to "buy" what basically amounts to an apartment, only to also pay rent on it in the name of condo fees? Same goes for HoA's. Why would you buy a place, where you have to pay people to tell you what to do? I remember my dad's wise words "My house, my rules. When you pay the bills, you can make the rules". Way I see it, if somebody else can tell you what to do and not do, you don't own ****.

From personal experience as a landlord, I had 2 tenants that rented from me and had a house far away outside of the city. They only rented for Monday-Friday and went home on the weekends.
Some people are simply numbers...I can buy A property, rent it out for X amount, and then I can rent B property for less money. Win - Win.

As for your second point, it's simple...we bought into a condo townhouse, because that's what we could afford. Freehold homes (town/semi-detached) were all way more then our condo town. The fees were reasonable at $240-290/month (in 3 years of increases) which included water so that was nice.

But you are correct, I joined the Board to see what's what...and talk about dysfunctional...I left fairly soon afterwards. Give people who have never achieved anything any 'power' (or whatever they think they have) and you have a recipe for disaster. All the sane (and I'll count myself in this group) left shortly after I did because the new Board members were idiots. I feel for that property and what's coming for them financially because they were really a good group of people, but they're going to get ****** financially by the new Board.

 

[nobbie48]

By the way lets not forget, all this money the feds are spending is our money and will have to be paid back. Look out!

Every politician before every speech should have to loudly state. "Everything I promise you will be paid for by your own money and we don't handle it well."

 

[mimico_polak]

Every politician before every speech should have to loudly state. "Everything I promise you will be paid for by your own money and we don't handle it well."

By you, your children, and possibly your grandchildren at this pace.

 

[nobbie48]

From personal experience as a landlord, I had 2 tenants that rented from me and had a house far away outside of the city. They only rented for Monday-Friday and went home on the weekends.
Some people are simply numbers...I can buy A property, rent it out for X amount, and then I can rent B property for less money. Win - Win.

As for your second point, it's simple...we bought into a condo townhouse, because that's what we could afford. Freehold homes (town/semi-detached) were all way more then our condo town. The fees were reasonable at $240-290/month (in 3 years of increases) which included water so that was nice.

But you are correct, I joined the Board to see what's what...and talk about dysfunctional...I left fairly soon afterwards. Give people who have never achieved anything any 'power' (or whatever they think they have) and you have a recipe for disaster. All the sane (and I'll count myself in this group) left shortly after I did because the new Board members were idiots. I feel for that property and what's coming for them financially because they were really a good group of people, but they're going to get ****** financially by the new Board.

Been there done that. Too many mini Donald Trumps and wannabe interior decorators spending someone else's money.

 

[Evoex]

AGM meetings are always entertainment.

A well run board and a solid reserve fund are always far and between.

 

[shanekingsley]

I was going to run to be on the board of the condo I used to own and live in. I was running because I just wanted to try and get multiple bikes allowed in one parking spot. The caliber of candidates that I was up against included a retired CEO, an HR professional with decades of experience as a member and president of multiple boards, and a retired civil engineer who worked for a major construction company. Needless to say - that was a well run board but they never allowed more than one bike in a spot

 

[Baggsy]

Every politician before every speech should have to loudly state. "Everything I promise you will be paid for by your own money and we don't handle it well."

Church AGM's get a little wacky at times. Many of the congregation, aren't interested in the AGM, and some of the one's that do show, bring stuff up at the last minute and want the moon.

Perhaps, the minister should stand at the front and tell them straight out: "Ok you want a new commercial style dishwasher, that's $20,000, there's around 100 members at the service each week, reach into your pocket and fish out $200 now, and I'll collect the rest, that some of the others can't afford to pay later.

You do need that type of person, as well as the one who will question every decision on spending, but in just sufficient quantity, and no more.

 

[nobbie48]

I dont like condo fees, however my Moms is $700ish , heat , A/C, electric and water, indoor parking, pool, nice common garden and cable TV package. Its probably not far off the cost of carrying a house. But they did get the 15K assesment when the parking garage roof failed. Which would be like me shingling the old house we had so maybe a wash. There is often value in condo fees.

Until you have security and concierge to pay, then its gets goofy.

I made my living from serving condos and fees are no different than paying a handyman to look after a detached house. The problem often comes from a developer that maximizes his sales by putting up a structure that will be a money pit.

One thing that Mike Harris did right was a revamp of the condo game, forcing condos into having reserve funds. There are so many condo units out there that I could see voter pressure for bail outs as roofs and structures failed.

A lot of people don't like condo fees but if they got fair value for the money spent I don't see the complaint. There are individuals that don't understand the condo concept. You don't own the unit. Think in lines of owning the air inside it and the paint on the walls. Almost everything else is shared with some things being for the owners exclusive use, their balcony and parking spot for example. They can't modify them.

If a person lives on the ground floor and doesn't drive they still have to pay their share of elevator and parking garage maintenance costs.

If someone is looking at buying a condo my first warning would be to avoid buildings with a large percentage of renters. Renters have little say in the running of the building. The owners have the control of the building, don't want to spend to keep it decent and don't have to live in the eventual mess.

Townhouses, particularly with their own garages are my preference. Lower fees because there isn't a common garage to keep up nor elevators. Two big ticket items. AND no one can say squat about a bike. The big downside is they're mostly two story. A few bungalow ones can be found but they tend to be inhabited by old farts. I'm an old fart and don't want the competition.

I was not involved directly but there was one of those forced garage rebuilds on Bromsgrove in Mississauga a couple of decades ago that turned into a civil war. Not everyone there could come up with the five figures.

 

[GreyGhost]

I made my living from serving condos and fees are no different than paying a handyman to look after a detached house. The problem often comes from a developer that maximizes his sales by putting up a structure that will be a money pit.

One thing that Mike Harris did right was a revamp of the condo game, forcing condos into having reserve funds. There are so many condo units out there that I could see voter pressure for bail outs as roofs and structures failed.

A lot of people don't like condo fees but if they got fair value for the money spent I don't see the complaint. There are individuals that don't understand the condo concept. You don't own the unit. Think in lines of owning the air inside it and the paint on the walls. Almost everything else is shared with some things being for the owners exclusive use, their balcony and parking spot for example. They can't modify them.

If a person lives on the ground floor and doesn't drive they still have to pay their share of elevator and parking garage maintenance costs.

If someone is looking at buying a condo my first warning would be to avoid buildings with a large percentage of renters. Renters have little say in the running of the building. The owners have the control of the building, don't want to spend to keep it decent and don't have to live in the eventual mess.

Townhouses, particularly with their own garages are my preference. Lower fees because there isn't a common garage to keep up nor elevators. Two big ticket items. AND no one can say squat about a bike. The big downside is they're mostly two story. A few bungalow ones can be found but they tend to be inhabited by old farts. I'm an old fart and don't want the competition.

I was not involved directly but there was one of those forced garage rebuilds on Bromsgrove in Mississauga a couple of decades ago that turned into a civil war. Not everyone there could come up with the five figures.

I was talking to a guy in interior BC that had a condo in a tower that he wanted to sell. Unfortunately for him, the condo Corp encompassed adjacent townhouse blocks with huge foundation issues. The cost wasnt finalized but they were looking at special assessments on every condo of ~$100,000. Sales were either happening at the old price and the current owner pays the assessment whenever it happens at whatever price it is, or buyers were looking for 150+ off the price to reflect the uncertainty in the assessment.

 

[crankcall]

Church AGM's get a little wacky at times. Many of the congregation, aren't interested in the AGM, and some of the one's that do show, bring stuff up at the last minute and want the moon
You do need that type of person, as well as the one who will question every decision on spending, but in just sufficient quantity, and no more.

At a point in life, before I swore off organized religeon , I was the Chairman of the board of managers for a Presbyterian church. WOW. people actually thought "God would provide" was where money came from. Now, every few years a stupidly rich farmer or boomer croaks and leaves them a few hundred grand and the crazy starts all over again. This year is the 200 anniversary of that church, they ordered a 28K grand piano and took out the three front pews to fit it in.

I'm currently on the Board of my yacht club, everybody has a role and portfolio, but they all want to do each others job. Retired people with lots of time, especially now, people that had 'big' jobs in a previous life and want to run the show, people that take a responsibility with no idea how much work it will be, or how to do it. And my favorite , those pushing thier own agenda.

 

[nobbie48]

I was going to run to be on the board of the condo I used to own and live in. I was running because I just wanted to try and get multiple bikes allowed in one parking spot. The caliber of candidates that I was up against included a retired CEO, an HR professional with decades of experience as a member and president of multiple boards, and a retired civil engineer who worked for a major construction company. Needless to say - that was a well run board but they never allowed more than one bike in a spot

Sometimes one has to accept reality. I was talking to a property manager in Cobourg asking him about parking and it sucked. Only one parking spot per unit, NO visitor parking, no motorcycles. I asked why no bikes and he said the official stance was fuel spills and tip over risks but in reality it was that the people there looked down their noses at them. Other places have attitude queens that don't like pick up trucks or mud tire 4X4's parked next to their Buicks. Know when to fold up.

 

[nobbie48]

Friends used to rent an older place with baseboard heating - their winter bills were insane.

My daughter's 90 year old place in Hamilton had a 200 amp service for a small house. Then I saw an unused 100 amp breaker labeled "Furnace". I suspect the previous owner did a switch to electric and freaked out when they got their bill on a poorly insulated house and went back to gas.

 

[nobbie48]

At a point in life, before I swore off organized religeon , I was the Chairman of the board of managers for a Presbyterian church. WOW. people actually thought "God would provide" was where money came from. Now, every few years a stupidly rich farmer or boomer croaks and leaves them a few hundred grand and the crazy starts all over again. This year is the 200 anniversary of that church, they ordered a 28K grand piano and took out the three front pews to fit it in.

I'm currently on the Board of my yacht club, everybody has a role and portfolio, but they all want to do each others job. Retired people with lots of time, especially now, people that had 'big' jobs in a previous life and want to run the show, people that take a responsibility with no idea how much work it will be, or how to do it. And my favorite , those pushing thier own agenda.

A posh church downtown TO has tons of money "In Honour Of..." which means it has to be spent on something with a brass plaque attached, stained glass window, new dais, statue etc. It can't be used for the general running of the place so they're tight for money to pay heat, hydro, general maintenance and cleaning.

 

[GreyGhost]

My daughter's 90 year old place in Hamilton had a 200 amp service for a small house. Then I saw an unused 100 amp breaker labeled "Furnace". I suspect the previous owner did a switch to electric and freaked out when they got their bill on a poorly insulated house and went back to gas.

My parents built their place in the 70's. At the time electricity was cheap and the push was that it would only go down. They installed a heat pump and furnace with resistance heater and an additional duct heater (8000 watt or so). When the furnace was replaced 20 years later, they pulled the duct heater as they had never used it. Still running heat pumps as natural gas is not available and the price to get propane in does bot make sense for their usage.

 

[Baggsy]

At a point in life, before I swore off organized religeon , I was the Chairman of the board of managers for a Presbyterian church. WOW. people actually thought "God would provide" was where money came from. Now, every few years a stupidly rich farmer or boomer croaks and leaves them a few hundred grand and the crazy starts all over again. This year is the 200 anniversary of that church, they ordered a 28K grand piano and took out the three front pews to fit it in.

I'm currently on the Board of my yacht club, everybody has a role and portfolio, but they all want to do each others job. Retired people with lots of time, especially now, people that had 'big' jobs in a previous life and want to run the show, people that take a responsibility with no idea how much work it will be, or how to do it. And my favorite , those pushing thier own agenda.

A posh church downtown TO has tons of money "In Honour Of..." which means it has to be spent on something with a brass plaque attached, stained glass window, new dais, statue etc. It can't be used for the general running of the place so they're tight for money to pay heat, hydro, general maintenance and cleaning.

@crankcall, which church? I'm still technically an Elder at St. Giles Kingsway, but we attend far away from there. For the most part, donations like that go into a special fund, that can't be easily touched for operating costs, but can be spent on building maintenance.
Current church sold their land to a hospice and moved further out in the middle of corn fields. People are getting cranky that they can't access the church's internet anymore, as there's no hardline, and they were constantly going over budget. Someone brought it up at the annual meeting, and it was quickly shut down by showing them how much it would cost.

My uncle helped found one of the yacht clubs along the Bluffs, I think he did a bunch of the wiring and communication lines; Years later when he needed a bigger berth, there was no longer any room for him.

 

[油井緋色]

I'm currently on the Board of my yacht club, everybody has a role and portfolio, but they all want to do each others job. Retired people with lots of time, especially now, people that had 'big' jobs in a previous life and want to run the show, people that take a responsibility with no idea how much work it will be, or how to do it. And my favorite , those pushing thier own agenda.

This sounds like my workplace lol

Marketing, and sales folk who were very successful before computers became a huge thing trying to lead software development. Initially I thought I'd just follow them because they have so much experience so they have to know what they're doing ("drinking the kool aid" example) Then they started making mistakes that were literally case studies from what I learned in school. Trying to point this out to them didn't do **** because pride and ego are things and getting promoted meant I had to play the optics game as opposed to being pragmatic.

So now I just listen, tell them if I think **** gonna hit the fan, and become an uncensored pirate once my predictions become true but I take great joy in watching the chaos. A bunch of them hate me as a result, but they need me, and they know I know.

....I should probably change jobs soon, because the above has literally nothing to do with software development lol

----------------------

Regarding the actual topic...honestly I feel bad for Toronto as a whole because it's going in the direction of SoCal. If you're a software developer in SoCal, you're fine because the salaries are ridiculously high but relative to the rent costs. If you aren't, you'll be forced out into the boonies.

During the last 5 years the businesses down south realized:

• Software developers are way underpaid in Toronto
• A bunch of us were moving to the US due to the pay difference ($50k average CAD vs $90k avg USD, that's more than 2x)

In other words...Toronto (or the GTA) has a concentrated amount of competent developers who were being underpaid. This is slowly being equalized now (Shopify pays fresh grads $80k to $90k, Amazon in Toronto offered me $120k, Google was around the same) and the old players like banks and what not will either have to outsource or match what these goliaths are paying.

The above results more and more people getting into software development and because the salaries are so high and they can easily afford the rent hikes. Most of us also haven't been effected by the COVID issue either (Bird is the known exception) with some really prospering (gaming, telecommunications, etc.) And of course, rent hikes will lead to more ******** buying multiple "homes" (aka. properties) in order to rent them out for profit!

I'm just gonna do what most software developers do: pay the rent, make the monies, and go back to living in buttfuck nowhere after. This is more or less a scorched earth approach though because I'm contributing to the problem.

 

[JTR]

A posh church downtown TO has tons of money "In Honour Of..." which means it has to be spent on something with a brass plaque attached, stained glass window, new dais, statue etc. It can't be used for the general running of the place so they're tight for money to pay heat, hydro, general maintenance and cleaning.

Maybe they need to learn how to launder money lol. Use the "In Honor of..." money to sponsor fundraiser events in honour of that person. Thus turning "in Honour Of..." money, into general church "we did a thing" money.

 

[crankcall]

@Baggsy, Boston Presbyterian , north of Milton in the 'scotch block' . Its a beautiful limestone building named for the reverend Boston , the first minister. Stone building around a timberframe went up in 1860 pre confederation, replaced a wooden building from the 1820's. Largely founded by Scot imigrants ( my family) with a huge timber grant from the Laidlaw forest company, when Halton had so much enormous white pine, red pine and Hemlock stands that we exported lumber. Many generations of my family were married there, lots still attend.

My brief foray into the board management and inner workings of the Christian mind left me not wanting to pass up a nice Sunday am to ride my bike.......

 

[nobbie48]

Toronto prices: According to a connected friend condos in the Avenue Road & St Clair area are up in price and moving so fast that many are private sales. These are not 600 SF Air BNB. Detached houses in the western suburbs are selling and we're not seeing the 2008 melt down.

Boats in the USA are selling because people have no place to go for vacations. No one wants them.

A buddy just sold a boat I thought he would have to scrap. I'm guessing a family restricted to an Ontario vacation figured a few grand for a season was a good option, even if they had to scrap it in September.