HELP! - Terrible Fuel Efficiency on SV650s w Power Commander | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

HELP! - Terrible Fuel Efficiency on SV650s w Power Commander

Yeah, I know airflow was definitely out of spec, though I didn't know how much because i removed everything except the filter a while back (did not have a replacement filter at the time). However everything I read had convinced me that just the airflow could not account for a 40% drop in fuel efficiency because of the closed loop. A major drop in power yes, but not fuel efficiency.

Seems like the forums were wrong on that. For anyone else out there, it's definitely worth it to keep your filter clean or you'll end up paying more than the cost of a new one in Gas!

So you wonder why air not being able to flow into the motor would negatively effecting fuel mileage? Didn't you say they were nesting in there? Lmao


andre14:
Will check, thanks!
 
Sounds like you've figured out your problem, and I'm glad to see that.

But, am I the only one with an SV who's left wondering how you get 250 km on a tank? If I do some highway riding, then I can get around 220 km max. Usually my light comes on below 200 km. I'm just posting because I'm jealous. :)
 
Sounds like you've figured out your problem, and I'm glad to see that.

But, am I the only one with an SV who's left wondering how you get 250 km on a tank? If I do some highway riding, then I can get around 220 km max. Usually my light comes on below 200 km. I'm just posting because I'm jealous. :)

When was the last time you cleaned/changed your air filter? lol

Jokes aside, the SV reportedly has some really varied mileage http://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/suzuki/sv650. If you're 1st gen, you tend to get higher mileage than 2nd gen until 2007 and then mileage went up again, supposedly because they added those dual plugs in each cylinder.

Mine came with a power commander that is set manually towards lean, so that might be helping me. It also has the full M4 exhaust which might again help me to get the power I need with less gas (i have no facts to support this). Other than that, check that your plugs/injectors are clean like was proposed by other posters in this thread.

Riding style makes a big difference too. If you're reaming the throttle and braking a lot, it'll kill your mileage no matter what vehicle you're in. When I'm not overtaking or doing spirited riding, I try to keep the RPMs below 6k, seems to help. Good thing the SV's still got decent pull down there (unlike many I4s).
 
Sprocket that came with it was a worn out aluminum with a few less teeth than OEM. Now it's a steel OEM.
If you changed your gearing (by increasing or decreasing the number of teeth on the front of rear sprocket) that can have a big effect on your fuel economy, but more importantly, it may have been mis-reading your actual mileage before, and now it's actually reading the correct mileage!

How's your speedo, seem accurate? http://www.gearingcommander.com and check your sprocket teeth to find out how far she's off. SpeedoHealerV4 FTW :)

-Jamie M.
 
But, am I the only one with an SV who's left wondering how you get 250 km on a tank? If I do some highway riding, then I can get around 220 km max. Usually my light comes on below 200 km. I'm just posting because I'm jealous. :)

I have a 2006 sv650s (yosh slip-on, no power commander) and get the normal approx 260-270 km before the "low fuel" indicator starts blinking.
 
Yeah, I know airflow was definitely out of spec, though I didn't know how much because i removed everything except the filter a while back (did not have a replacement filter at the time). However everything I read had convinced me that just the airflow could not account for a 40% drop in fuel efficiency because of the closed loop. A major drop in power yes, but not fuel efficiency.

The simple explanation is that if you reduce air flow by 40% you're going to reduce the motors efficency (horsepower directly related to that) by probably about the same amount. The computer is able to make small variations in fueling, to accommodate for changes in altitude and other such environmental changes. It's not designed to compensate for a 40% loss of air flow, i'm honestly surprised that the computer didn't think the air intake sensor was toast and throw a code to be honest.


Seems like the forums were wrong on that. For anyone else out there, it's definitely worth it to keep your filter clean or you'll end up paying more than the cost of a new one in Gas!

indeed, this applies to all maintenance.
 
BrianP,

I ran across this post of yours while researching what I can do to improve the fuel economy of my new (to me) 2000 Kawasaki Vulcan Nomad 1500FI, which came with a PC-II installed along with V&H pipes and a K&N air filter package. When I got it the bike was running way rich as evidenced by the plugs and poor mileage, from 28 to 32 mpg depending on whether I was getting on the throttle or not. I've played with the maps a bit after reading your post. The "stock" map for my bike seems fine, no pinging, doesn't run too hot, but even though it's leaner than the map specified for my airflow it doesn't really improve my mileage by much. The "zero" map - literally all zeroes, was better a bit better but I had a lot of popping on decel and it did seem to run hotter. I've gotten as high as 38 mpg on one tank (all highway cruising) but am convinced I can do better, even with California's crappy summertime MTBE fuel.

This weekend I'm going to go back to the map for my pipes and air cleaner in and leave it alone in the 40% and up column but edit the lower throttle position columns to the stock map then and then apply your methodology to start dialing it back even further. If I understand correctly I'll need to leave some fuel in the 0 column at 1000 rpm to alleviate backfiring on decel.

I think where the meat of my opportunity is going to lie will be in the 5, 10, and 20 % columns between 1500 and 3500 RPM. I'm tempted to just zero most of them out but will probably ease into them like you recommend.

I realize our bikes are substantially different, but for reference I'd love to see your economy optimized map, and/or any notes you might have taken along the way to developing it. Would you be able to post the .MAP file or perhaps a spreadsheet table of your values here?

I've done a lot of Googling on this topic and haven't found a single other reference to optimizing the PC-II for fuel economy that comes close to being as useful as your post here. There are a lot of big twin cruisers in the same vintage as mine still using the PC-II and think it would be worth developing and disseminating this methodology a bit more robustly for the benefit of all of us riding them.

FWIW, the bike has very low miles and came to me after two years in storage so I did all the important periodic engine maintenance stuff right away. Prior to that it had been owned by an old guy with a fat wallet and a real maintenance fetish. The shop he used told me he had it in at least every thousand miles just to have them detail it even if it didn't need anything else. Consequently I have reason to be confident that the PC-II is the sole reason for my poor economy.

Thanks much,
Scott in NorCal
 
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I have a 2006 sv650s (yosh slip-on, no power commander) and get the normal approx 260-270 km before the "low fuel" indicator starts blinking.

Holy crap that's good... 04 SV650n here, and I'll get to 220-250 before my light comes on, depending on my riding. I just got over 40k kms, did the valve inspection once (it was flawless), synthetic oils and a chopped stock exhaust. Never replaced the air filter, but I had it open when i did the valve inspection at 35k kms and it looked clean...
 
Holy crap that's good... 04 SV650n here, and I'll get to 220-250 before my light comes on, depending on my riding. I just got over 40k kms, did the valve inspection once (it was flawless), synthetic oils and a chopped stock exhaust. Never replaced the air filter, but I had it open when i did the valve inspection at 35k kms and it looked clean...
He's probably changed the sprockets/gearing and not calibrated his speedo, so his 270 is more like 240 real world KM's ;)
 
He's probably changed the sprockets/gearing and not calibrated his speedo, so his 270 is more like 240 real world KM's ;)

except that Sv650s speedo pickup is on the front wheel. FAIL!
 
except that Sv650s speedo pickup is on the front wheel. FAIL!

... Sigh. The speed sensors on the front and rear wheels are only used by the ABS computer to calculate slip. The speedometer on the dash still gets it's signal from the speed sensor under the airbox, reading off the transmission rotational speed, and will be affected by final drive ratio changes.
 
Keep sighing as my fiancees 05 sv650 doesnt have ABS and it uses a speedo pickup on the front wheel. In fact, ABS was not introduced until 2007 and yet ALL sv650s since 99 use a front wheel pickup.

Guys doing GSXR conversions to their front end and having to retrofit a speedo pickup on the front wheel are doing it...why? Cuz they are idiots?

so again....FAIL!

oh and all this talk about the O2 sensors had me go and check the fiances bike....no o2 sensor....so seeing as how his is an 05 as well, maybe we shouldnt talk about O2 sensor issues with the PCIII as its not applicable.
 
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except that Sv650s speedo pickup is on the front wheel. FAIL!
Who ****** in your cornflakes this morning?

Can_t_stop_now_someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet.jpg
 
Man, good question...but i have been on a war path this morning...maybe its all the half-truths that people perpetuate and they become mainstream....

If i didnt correct you, some newbie with an SV650's gonna go to Tims and be like "nah man, i read on the net i'm gonna alter my speedo if i do sprockets and i dont wanna deal with that"

LOL.

It was meant as a joke but than the clueless dude after you goes into some semi technical jargon speak to try and prove me wrong while waving an "i'm an idiot" flag to anyone who knows sv650's and you know, i snap. LOL

Who ****** in your cornflakes this morning?

Can_t_stop_now_someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet.jpg
 
Aww, cupcake, did i hurt your feelings? Want a medal just for participating?
 
You pulled that from the transmission right? right? where else would it be?? :rolleyes:


The #1 way for SV owners to learn where the speedo sensor is....

rotors.jpg
 
Keep sighing as my fiancees 05 sv650 doesnt have ABS and it uses a speedo pickup on the front wheel. In fact, ABS was not introduced until 2007 and yet ALL sv650s since 99 use a front wheel pickup.

Guys doing GSXR conversions to their front end and having to retrofit a speedo pickup on the front wheel are doing it...why? Cuz they are idiots?

so again....FAIL!

oh and all this talk about the O2 sensors had me go and check the fiances bike....no o2 sensor....so seeing as how his is an 05 as well, maybe we shouldnt talk about O2 sensor issues with the PCIII as its not applicable.

...

It was meant as a joke but than the clueless dude after you goes into some semi technical jargon speak to try and prove me wrong while waving an "i'm an idiot" flag to anyone who knows sv650's and you know, i snap. LOL

I appreciate the lessons in both the technical aspects and humility. I don't take it personally that you pointed it out the way you did it's always good to be reminded that not everyone knows everything. You had every right to reply the way you did, thank you.
 
My experience with default PowerCommander maps has been that they are obnoxiously and unnecessarily rich in the part-load cruising region. (On a bike that was obnoxiously and unnecessarily rich to begin with, they did not address this.)

You are better off editing the maps yourself rather than trying to find a nonexistent map to address this.

Now ... important question. When you originally got the bike and it was doing 250 km per tank, and now it's only doing 160 ... What changed? Did that change coincide with installation or mapping of the Power Commander? If it did not change with the installation of the PowerCommander, what DID change that resulted in this difference?

I am going to ASSume that the 250 km per tank was without the PowerCommander installed, and then you installed the PowerCommander. If that is the case then you have a screwed up map installed. If the situation is something else then explain the missing piece of the puzzle. What changed?

If the problem is that you have a screwed up map ...

First fill the bike with the most oxygenated fuel out there ... Sunoco/PetroCanada Ultra 94. (I never use this fuel for anything other than calibrating for how lean we can go ...)

Connect your laptop and cable to the bike and start the PowerCommander software with the engine running / key switched on (whatever you need in order to access the map). Save the map to your laptop as it is right now so that you have a known state to go back to if something goes haywire.

Now, go down the 0% column at all engine revs starting with 1500 rpm all the way to redline and subtract 5 (in absolute terms) from each number in that column. By "in absolute terms" ... 8 minus 5 is 3. 2 minus 5 is -3. -7 minus 5 is -12.

Do the same thing for the 2% column, 5% column, and 10% column.

Now go ride the bike and see if there are any driveability issues when cruising at various constant speeds or in gentle acceleration. The engine load at such small throttle settings is so light that you need not worry about doing damage. Feel for hints of surging or hesitation, which are the symptoms of being too lean. Chances are, it will feel exactly the same, maybe even better (if my suspicion of being too rich is correct).

If all is well then repeat the same step again. You can keep right on going leaner and leaner until you start feeling signs of flat throttle response, stumbling and hesitation on gentle acceleration, surging at constant throttle cruise, etc. If you get such symptoms, note the RPM at which it occurs and take a guess at the throttle position. Since you know the setting 5 higher than this was OK, try adding 3 (in absolute terms ... once again, negative-12 plus 3 is negative-9) in the RPM range in question. Go a little above and below just to make sure. Repeat, repeat, repeat ...

Once you have all this in the ballpark, feel free to use the 20% throttle position column to blend whatever you found for the 10% throttle with whatever is in the 40% column so that there is a smooth transition between your new "lean cruise" part-load map with the "power" settings at 40% throttle and above (which you should not touch).

Expect this to take a fair bit of trial and error. Expect to discover circumstances months later that you hadn't originally anticipated and thus needing to make further adjustments. You are NOT going to find any such map pre-made for you. And NO dyno shop is going to take the time that it's going to take to do this, and you wouldn't be able to pay their price even if they would.

My ZX10R map developed in this manner has some parts of the map at -35 (taking away 35% of the original fuel delivery) ... after about a month of tweaking followed by discovering at the drag strip that a long coast-down period resulted in the engine internals cooling off to the point of causing a lean-misfire (a circumstance that I didn't originally try out). Power is unchanged (because the full-load part of the map is not touched), driveability is impeccable (because I'm fussy), it doesn't run hot or detonate or do any of the other things everyone warns about when using lean cruise (they're doing it wrong), the engine oil no longer smells like fuel when it comes time for an oil change (translation: excessive fuel is no longer washing the oil off the cylinder walls and getting into the crankcase), the spark plugs no longer turn black, and fuel consumption has improved from 7 -8 L/100 km to around 5.5 L/100 km and that's despite putting drastically shortened dragstrip gearing on it at the same time ...

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a question about this issue.

Do you -5% in all numbers in the column including the sections that have repetitive zeros?

I am thinking of leaving the columns that have continuous zeros. They will just do what the untuned ECU tells it to do, right?

Thanks
 

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