Good reason to avoid buying a condo.

CruisnGrrl

CruisnGrrl

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http://penhorwood.ca/

looks like the owners of each unit could be on the hook for the monies owed on their mortgages.

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/For...nancially+devastate+owners/4506237/story.html

One day after being officially condemned, a perimeter is up around the Penhorwood condo complex in Fort McMurray.

Two weeks ago all seven buildings were evacuated after concerns arose about their structural safety. More than 300 people were left homeless.

"It's obvious that things aren't supposed to be breaking." Former resident Gordon Maynard said. "Cement walls aren't supposed to be cracking open."

Days later residents were allowed to return for 15 minutes to grab whatever they could carry, unsure of when they'd be able to return.

"I was talking to one couple there with a small child. They were living in a van." Maynard said.

Now, the situation has grown even more dire. A team of engineers has discovered deficiencies so severe that it's feared the buildings could collapse at any time. No one will ever live in any of the buildings again.

"I knew then that it would be sinking in for the owners what situation they were in...they're truly in trouble here."

About two-thirds of the condo residents were renters, and the majority of them have found new places to live, however, moving on won't be nearly as easy for owners who continue to search for answers.

"Economically, this is nightmare for some people. It's something they may never recover from."

The Penhorwood Condo Association is hoping the courts will be able to help. They're going after the developer, architect, builder, inspectors and the municipality.

"We're still unaware of what the actual cause of this is and where the failure occurred." says acting Mayor of the Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo Mike Allen.

A response owners and tenants have been hearing a lot.

The case is expected to be before the courts for months, and the outcome is far from certain, leaving owners in a state of limbo, hoping they can afford to wait for someone to be held responsible.

"In the end, hopefully I won't have to declare bankruptcy."
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That same sort of thing can happen with any new building, including "non-condo" apartments, single detached homes, semi-detached homes, townhouses, etc. Would you be suggesting that people avoid buying them too?

In any case there is a lot more engineering design and construction standards rigor followed in building big condo buildings than there is in building single-family detached homes. You're far more likely to be burned by structural defects in a new bungalow than you would in a condo apartment. This is bad for the condo owners but it is extremely rare to see this kind of major structural loss, and hardly a "good reason to avoid buying a condo".
 
Reminds me of this one:

20090627_14.jpg


20090627_16.jpg
 
I would take this as a good reason to have a building inspection done before buying ANYthing, condo or otherwise.

'Course, home inspections in Ontario are unregulated, and they're not allowed to take anything apart in order to find hidden flaws, which limits their usefulness, but it's still better than nothing. (Watch Holmes on Homes, or Holmes Inspection, to see some horror stories)
 
turbodish said:
That same sort of thing can happen with any new building, including "non-condo" apartments, single detached homes, semi-detached homes, townhouses, etc. Would you be suggesting that people avoid buying them too?

In any case there is a lot more engineering design and construction standards rigor followed in building big condo buildings than there is in building single-family detached homes. You're far more likely to be burned by structural defects in a new bungalow than you would in a condo apartment. This is bad for the condo owners but it is extremely rare to see this kind of major structural loss, and hardly a "good reason to avoid buying a condo".
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Agreed, however, I will say that if your house (detached in particular) are condemned, then at least you still have the value of the land itself to fall back on. If you live in a condo, you don't really have anything.

I am a condo owner, and I realize that at the end of the day, I don't really own anything tangible, but the right to live in a concrete block.
 
Brian P said:
I would take this as a good reason to have a building inspection done before buying ANYthing, condo or otherwise.

'Course, home inspections in Ontario are unregulated, and they're not allowed to take anything apart in order to find hidden flaws, which limits their usefulness, but it's still better than nothing. (Watch Holmes on Homes, or Holmes Inspection, to see some horror stories)
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I doubt the average home inspector would have the necessary expertise to recognize the real underlying problems with this building before they had actually manifested themselves through the recent cracking of structural elements, and even then it may have been overlooked.

The apparent "construction defects" in the pictures are not so much defects as they are only recently-visible effects of long-term soil subsidence underneath the foundation. There seems to have been some issue with soil engineering on the building site even before the first foundation footings were ever poured.
Gord and his team have already provided their report saying that the fill materials that were used were substandard and therefore all foundations, both interior and exterior need extensive remediation. This is due to the fact that the Building Inspector waived the requirement for certification by a professional geo-technical engineer. They will now work with Terry to try to find a solution, if there is one. Remediation was too have commenced this spring.
......
The Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo by-laws and their development permit for this project required engineering certification that the project was built in accordance with CMHC flood plain guidelines. The guidelines were completely ignored. The RMWB waived the requirement for engineering certification. This gave rise to the soil problems referred to above. This also requires that if and when the foundations and crawl space walls are stabilized, we must also determine whether this structure can withstand the flood that will occur in this area, perhaps sooner rather than later. Wim Veldman is a world renowned hydrologist. We are proud and honoured to have him on the team.
http://penhorwood.ca/?p=76
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Chaos said:
Agreed, however, I will say that if your house (detached in particular) are condemned, then at least you still have the value of the land itself to fall back on. If you live in a condo, you don't really have anything.

I am a condo owner, and I realize that at the end of the day, I don't really own anything tangible, but the right to live in a concrete block.
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That's true enough. However, as a condo owner you do have an interest in the value of the land under the condo, and are entitled to receiving your interest in that property if the condo is dissolved as a result of substantial damage. The prime locations of some condos can result in some seriously high land values underneath.
 
NO reason to avoid buying a condo!

mazdubb said:
Reminds me of this one:
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Now that's a solid building! Note how it didn't even collapse, heck, even most windows are intact. Now the foundation, well, that's a different story. :D

The title of this thread is fit for Fox News...
 
turbodish said:
That's true enough. However, as a condo owner you do have an interest in the value of the land under the condo, and are entitled to receiving your interest in that property if the condo is dissolved as a result of substantial damage. The prime locations of some condos can result in some seriously high land values underneath.
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and if the area is where land is cheap you have 1/300th (in this case) of the value of the land after costs. In larger condos your slice of the pie is even smaller. this is Fort McMurray we're talking about where you can get 10 acres of real estate for $300,000 that would entitle you to what ... about $1,000 even if the land went for $1,000,000 out of 300 people your share is less than $4,000. and that is if the land is sold.

How many units in some of those high rise condos down town toronto? say 20 units per floor for what 50 or 60 floors? that would be giving you 1/1000 or 1/1200 of a share of a piece of land that has a condemned building on it that no one can enter. dismantling it would provide a challenge. How much would some one be willing to pay for a piece of land that would require difficult demolition of a building before they could start building?

If my house was condemned tomorrow the value of my land is about 1/2 that of the house... (judging from what the parcel of land directly next door to me went for). i don't have to split that with hundreds of my closest neighbours.
 
But in a condo you get to be lorded over by a board of highly capable gentlemen, have your bike stolen and you don't have to worry about having the police to come and investigate.. What I always wanted in a home :cool:
 
Meh, I like my condo. I like being able to walk down to my gym in my shorts...in January!
 
it wont end soon but the municipality that allowed the engineering specs to be skipped will settle out of court, well the insurance Co will. It will take about 3 yrs and cost some bucks, but the owners will get value of investment + costs.
The builder is already running for cover and in the process of being "backrupt".
We will all pay higher insurance rates as a result of lax building standards enforcement.

For a local example all you Burlington guys look at your waterfront pier......
 
CruisnGrrl said:
and if the area is where land is cheap you have 1/300th (in this case) of the value of the land after costs. In larger condos your slice of the pie is even smaller. this is Fort McMurray we're talking about where you can get 10 acres of real estate for $300,000 that would entitle you to what ... about $1,000 even if the land went for $1,000,000 out of 300 people your share is less than $4,000. and that is if the land is sold.

How many units in some of those high rise condos down town toronto? say 20 units per floor for what 50 or 60 floors? that would be giving you 1/1000 or 1/1200 of a share of a piece of land that has a condemned building on it that no one can enter. dismantling it would provide a challenge. How much would some one be willing to pay for a piece of land that would require difficult demolition of a building before they could start building?

If my house was condemned tomorrow the value of my land is about 1/2 that of the house... (judging from what the parcel of land directly next door to me went for). i don't have to split that with hundreds of my closest neighbours.
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I don't think there are many 50-60 story condos but I have heard of some older run down ones that are worth more in land value than the market value.
I also met a condo manager that had to sign a demolition order to take down one in Sudbury or North Bay. Bad soil test.
 
nobbie48 said:
I don't think there are many 50-60 story condos but I have heard of some older run down ones that are worth more in land value than the market value.
I also met a condo manager that had to sign a demolition order to take down one in Sudbury or North Bay. Bad soil test.
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new trump condo is 70 stories (i'd heard 100) but part of the building will be hotel. http://www.torontocondoteam.ca/trump
 
crankcall said:
For a local example all you Burlington guys look at your waterfront pier......
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Cam Jackson's looking for a job, if you know anyone who's hiring.
 
CruisnGrrl said:
and if the area is where land is cheap you have 1/300th (in this case) of the value of the land after costs. In larger condos your slice of the pie is even smaller. this is Fort McMurray we're talking about where you can get 10 acres of real estate for $300,000 that would entitle you to what ... about $1,000 even if the land went for $1,000,000 out of 300 people your share is less than $4,000. and that is if the land is land directly next door to me went for). s.
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I thought property in fort mcmurray has skyrocketed in value in the past few years?
 
This is why you only buy from well respected builders with a strong track record. Even then there is little guarantee. I have quite a few friends with new homes (houses) that have building code, and electrical code violations all over the place. They just don't get properly inspected by the authorities (looks to me they maybe hit 10% on the houses/units in a new development).

Hopefully the condo owners here get their investment and costs back but I bet the builder etc. will declare bankruptcy and walk away (and be back in business in a year). Hopefully the inspectors lose their jobs to light a fire under the next group to do the job right.
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