Garage insulation and heating please give me some advice

[Freestyle72]

R12 was a standard wall rating for yrs, the code changed Jan 2012.
However R12 will be a very noticable difference , your in a monoblock constructed garage and it will radiate cold from that block wall. Putting insulation onthe inside is your maximum gain. I've done a bit of this, best bang for buck is rigid foam SM type onto the block with adhesive and a few masonary nails to hold it till the glue sticks, then drywall directly over it. Use tapcon fastners to mount drywall thru foam into the block. You get protection from sparks and grinding stuff for the foam. 1" foam,1/2 drywall, your not loosing much space.
You dont need a vapour barrier here, its not living area so no showers/cooking ect producing moisture and foam board insul is not affected by moisture changing its insulating properties.
The concrete floor IS a heat sink, the largest hardest part of a garage to fix is the floor runs outside under the door and concrete conducts cold into the room. A large rubber mat makes this a happy place.
Remember if you insulate the ceiling you need to maintain roof venting, generally a garage roof gets no vents, the heat in summer can just push down into the room, you dont want to cook your shingles.
Is the door a roll up or folder? You can insulate the folder and it will still swing not bad. If its a roll up it will need to be re-tensioned after adding the weight. Unless your been shown how to do this you can loose a finger be careful.

If you go electric heat it's plug and play and safe, add a pool heater timer and warm it when you want. If you go natural gas you need venting and a gas line run and inspections ( you can do the work but your ins carrier will want to know its inspected), be careful with propane , burning LP produces a bizarre amount of moisture and when you start it in a small space condensation forms on every metal surface.

You don't recommend putting studs between the sheets of foam? The reason I ask is because if I want to hang shelving... right now I just tapcon right into the cinder blocks...

The other thing is if I do this I want to put a 2X4 edgewise... ever 2 ft center to center. Do I just get a long *** tapcon to pierce the 2
x4 through it's strong axis? Or are there some metal brackets you tapcon to the cinderblock that fixes the 2x4 there?

 

[crankcall]

Shelving wasn't in the parameters of your original request for info

The studs could be buried in the wall, if your giving up 1 1/2" to studding then upgrade to 1 1/2" foam to keep the monolith construction. If you have that gap you could put a couple electrical outlets on that wall. I would tapcon (actually generic version now the patent is over) the stud directly to the block no brackets required.
You could also build the wall as per the first proposal then use one of the pillaster systems with brackets off that for shelves fixed thru the gyproc/foam into the block, or you could affix L brackets for shelves directly to block with tapcons.
What do you propose putting on said shelves?? This is pretty important as to how they get built, I usually ask what people envision putting on shelves, then build knowing full well the load will be double what they guess.

My last project was to take CTC metal shelving sets that you bolt together, assemble them upside down and hang them from the rafters on bolts along the wall so the floor stayed clear, shelves start 4' off the floor. If you dont mind the units sitting on the floor I'm a big fan of the heavy duty plastic shelf sets (CTC flyer) , they dont rust, have holes so dust falls thru the shelf and batteries, muriatic acid jugs and stuff dont corrode them and they go with you when you move.

If you strap the wall with studs, get a can of LOW expansion foam, there are two (regular and low) get the LOW and spray the gaps between the studs and foam board to keep the area insulated, you just need a small bead. Resist touching the crap till its sets up then just trim it flush with the studs with a sharp scraper or trowel. Use with caution that stuff sticks to everything.

I haven't bothered doing the garage at this house yet, I have a 16x28 shop inside the house so we just carry projects inside, but when i need to work on a car I hang a couple tarps in the garage to keep the heat from getting into the ceiling area, its a 20x28x10ft uninsulated cube and an electric 240v heater keeps it OK for mechanical work.

If you dont have a hammer drill grab one from CTC next time its in the flyer, The $49 mastercraft one is ok for tapcon. Drill cement without a hammer drill is futile.
Remember also when drilling into blocks, block good holding power/mortar joints less.

 

[smergy]

Certain size buildings do not require inpections. A shed should be fine but your local zoning will say. If they care.

your correct. I would have liked to build something bigger, but it had to remain within the sq. ft. that constituted as a shed w/o requiring building permits/inspection. I contacted the city of Waterloo, you can build pretty much anything you want as long as its an independent (free standing) structure and at least X distance from the house.

Either way, if your just looking to just work on a bike, more space is always nice (assuming your not trying to fit your car in there too), but you have enough room to do a proper interior frame without getting creative. Personally I'd just do 2x4 frame w/ R-12, unless your heating full time, then go thicker insulation.

 

[Vipes]

Shelving wasn't in the parameters of your original request for info

The studs could be buried in the wall, if your giving up 1 1/2" to studding then upgrade to 1 1/2" foam to keep the monolith construction. If you have that gap you could put a couple electrical outlets on that wall. I would tapcon (actually generic version now the patent is over) the stud directly to the block no brackets required.

Don't fasten studs directly to the block unless it is pressure treated,blue wood or has a foam gasket behind it. Wood absorbs moisture form the block and concrete.

 

[Cat13]

Thanks for the great feedback so far guys has really given me a lot to think about. Another tricky one is that my electrical panel is almost flush to the wall so insulating will either force me to cover part of the panel which will prevent me from removing the face plate to add any further breakers, and I may be denied access to running more wires out the side as well…. I guess I could build an enclosure around it and insulate that as well… It can be shifted over about 8inches but I may have to re-wire quite a bit, and get the power disconnected by Milton Hydro which is also a pain and there’s the worry of the main feed lines not being long enough for the new orientation… So an enclosure might be the best thing however ugly…

Would R12 walls provide pretty decent insulation if I could do the ceiling in let's say R30? I don't want it to take forever to heat up or have exorbant heating costs... original reason why I wanted R20-R30 walls and ceiling was so that it would be noticeably warmer... if R12 is not going to make a big difference I'll probably just say screw it and put up with the cold.

If you make an enclosure for the panel dont put it tight... And make it out of plywood not drywall. Ideally don't cover it at all. Check your insurance, you may void it by enclosing your panel. You should see the size of the rooms we make for panels. Typcially you put more insulation in the roof than walls anyways. Heat rises. For some of our buildings we put R12 in the walls and R20 in the roof for example.

You dont need a vapour barrier here, its not living area so no showers/cooking ect producing moisture and foam board insul is not affected by moisture changing its insulating properties.
The concrete floor IS a heat sink, the largest hardest part of a garage to fix is the floor runs outside under the door and concrete conducts cold into the room. A large rubber mat makes this a happy place.

You need the vapour barrier for the moisture that is formed through the wall for the temperature changes. In high moisture rooms in a house you use a cementiuous drywall.
Concrete is a heat sink.. a floor is not. We do not insulate floors in a house or a building unless its special conditions like a building that has extreme temperatures like a food warehouse where rooms are kept at -25 etc. There are heating systems that pull heat out of the ground to heat buildings. Look at my diagram I posted it explains heat loss at the floor. Notice its the the joint of exterior wall and floor that is where your thermal bridge is.

get a can of LOW expansion foam, there are two (regular and low) get the LOW and spray the gaps between the studs and foam board to keep the area insulated, you just need a small bead. Resist touching the crap till its sets up then just trim it flush with the studs with a sharp scraper or trowel. Use with caution that stuff sticks to everything.

If you have any wiring in the walls do not use spray foam... if you need to renovate the garage for any reason in the future or need the wires checked or something then you will curse the day you were born.

Don't fasten studs directly to the block unless it is pressure treated,blue wood or has a foam gasket behind it. Wood absorbs moisture form the block and concrete.

There are brackets you can buy. And if you properly vapour barrier the garage I wouldnt worry about moisture. If you skip that step then worry.

 

[the bandit]

I gotta agree with greyghost Z-bar with Styrofoam would be your best bet no breaks in insulation due to z-bar design if installed properly and as far as shelving install wood backing between where shelves will go and tapcon to block, fasten drywall directly to z-bar, insulate roof sprayed or blown and a nice insulated garage door and voila cozy. I am maintaining 10-15c no heat in my garage on the coldest of days with no heat source except for residual heat from cars hot after commute.Mind you I have living space above garage.

 

[Irocian]

Anyone here in the spray foam business? that does smal job at reasonable rate? Have a small garage 12x12 that id like to get roof done.

 

[Flywheel]

How warm does it need to be while you're in there?

I have found that 8-10 degrees is plenty warm enough for wrenching. I was doing this for one winter in an insulated garage and all I had for heat was a mid size electric floor heater. I'd turn it on high then go back inside and have breakfast and coffee. 30-45 mins later it was warm in there, turned the heater on to low and that was plenty.

I run a 1500w radiant heater (like this: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43456,43465&p=44590) in an uninsulated garage and it seems to be enough. Peak rates cost about 15 cents/hour (unless I've miscalculated) and I'm rarely using it for more than a few hours a day. The ceiling is sealed off, so the warmer air won't escape easily, just enough to work without numb fingers. Throw a few of those cheap interlocking mats on the floor and call it day. Try the simple route first and see if that works. Renovation is always twice the hassle you think it will be.

 

[Cat13]

I run a 1500w radiant heater (like this: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43456,43465&p=44590) in an uninsulated garage and it seems to be enough. Peak rates cost about 15 cents/hour (unless I've miscalculated) and I'm rarely using it for more than a few hours a day. The ceiling is sealed off, so the warmer air won't escape easily, just enough to work without numb fingers. Throw a few of those cheap interlocking mats on the floor and call it day. Try the simple route first and see if that works. Renovation is always twice the hassle you think it will be.

The OPs idea is going to save him money in the long run. You might pay (Im just to throw out numbers just to get the point acrossed) 15 cents and need the heat for 4 hours each working day, if he insulates he might only need the heat for 2 hours saving himself 30 cents every day. Say you both work every day of the month.

You (15x4) x 30 = 18 Dollars a month
Him (15x2) x 30 = 9 Dollars a month

Say you work every day all year
You 18/month x 12 months = $216 a year
Him 9/month x 12 months = $108 a year

Times that by the time you use the garage. Potential for savings is there. PLUS its an added point when you sell the house. List it as an insulated workshop. Might increase the value of the house.

 

[Dino Z]

Very simple,

A) Ramset strapping ( 1" x 3" ) on walls spaced 16" on center. Buy Polyisocyanurate foil faced sheathing, 2 layers of 1" and apply staggering joints. Tape last layer of joints with red tuck tape. Walls will have an R Value of R 13. By taping you have a vapor barrier as product has impermeable facer. Use red tuck tape for joints.

Cover with 1/2" gypsum, walls are done.

Ceiling, code as of today is R 50 but that applies to inside living quarters, so do the following, lay batt insulation across rafters, use an R 20 or 5 1/2" thick. Then apply another layer of same in between rafters and hold in place using string running back and forth between rafters. This will give you R 40 total and in my opinion sufficient.

Put up vapor barrier, 6 mil poly, seal all joints well with red tuck tape.

Get a construction 220 volt heater placed high enough facing towards the inside of your home and if you can, an oscillating fan placed high on the ceiling helps alot.

You can call me to discuss if you need help in design , materials choice, pm me.

 

[Cat13]

Ceiling, code as of today is R 50 but that applies to inside living quarters

What?!? I seriously doubt that... Scan and send me the section of the OBC that says that....
BTW the new OBC isnt in effect yet. We are still using 2006.

Typically R20 is used and thats not even code. R20 is in response to the oil crisis of the 1970's. In fact that's why 2x6s are used. You can build a house with 2x4s and it be sturdy just you don't get the recommended insulation with 2x4s.

 

[crankcall]

Dino Z would be the insulation guru here.

Cat , not sure your not confusing residential and commercial codes.

 

[Cat13]

Dino Z would be the insulation guru here.

Cat , not sure your not confusing residential and commercial codes.

I've done high rise residential. I cant open the code link on my work computer but I SERIOUSLY doubt the R50... we don't even use that for freezer applications. Besides with the studs being a thermal break unless you wrap the building with 2" rigid around the exterior I don't see you hitting R50. Either that or increase the studs to 2x8 which is not only excessive but expensive. Or are you using the calculations where every wall component 'brick wood etc' has an Rvalue.

Dino where are you seeing R50?

 

[Dino Z]

What?!? I seriously doubt that... Scan and send me the section of the OBC that says that....
BTW the new OBC isnt in effect yet. We are still using 2006.

Typically R20 is used and thats not even code. R20 is in response to the oil crisis of the 1970's. In fact that's why 2x6s are used. You can build a house with 2x4s and it be sturdy just you don't get the recommended insulation with 2x4s.

OBC revision for 2012, permits issued this year must be as per new levels depending on zone.

Residential walls will see R24, electric heating will be higher, previous code just shy of R20

But it's a garage and not new construction.

Again, as suggested, thin profile polyiso on walls, greatest R Value without a big footprint on wall space and built in vapor barrier when taped.

Don't block soffit vents when laying batts in ceiling, and eventually install ridge vent on garage roof.

 

[Cat13]

OBC revision for 2012, permits issued this year must be as per new levels depending on zone.

Residential walls will see R24, electric heating will be higher, previous code just shy of R20

But it's a garage and not new construction.

Again, as suggested, thin profile polyiso on walls, greatest R Value without a big footprint on wall space and built in vapor barrier when taped.

Don't block soffit vents when laying batts in ceiling, and eventually install ridge vent on garage roof.

R24.... ok that makes more sense.... R50 was what I was having a problem with. Agreed this is a garage scenerio I just needed to understand where you were getting '50' from. The cost effect of that would seriously impact construction. We already get told to reduce costs as it is.

 

[caboose56]

The OPs idea is going to save him money in the long run. You might pay (Im just to throw out numbers just to get the point acrossed) 15 cents and need the heat for 4 hours each working day, if he insulates he might only need the heat for 2 hours saving himself 30 cents every day. Say you both work every day of the month.

You (15x4) x 30 = 18 Dollars a month
Him (15x2) x 30 = 9 Dollars a month

Say you work every day all year
You 18/month x 12 months = $216 a year
Him 9/month x 12 months = $108 a year

Times that by the time you use the garage. Potential for savings is there. PLUS its an added point when you sell the house. List it as an insulated workshop. Might increase the value of the house.

Your numberes are skewed.

- I highly doubt Mo will be out in the garage working every day.
- Weekends are off-peak.
- The garage won't need heating 12 months of the year. 4 or 5 months is more realistic.
- Your $108 annual savings estimate is probably closer to $50.

 

[Cat13]

Your numberes are skewed.

- I highly doubt Mo will be out in the garage working every day.
- Weekends are off-peak.
- The garage won't need heating 12 months of the year. 4 or 5 months is more realistic.
- Your $108 annual savings estimate is probably closer to $50.

You missed the hyperthetical aspect of my post.... reread again. Like I said I was throwing numbers out for comparison. I don't pay for electricity where I am so dont know the cost per hour. I based my calc off of what buddy posted earlier.

 

[Dino Z]

R24.... ok that makes more sense.... R50 was what I was having a problem with. Agreed this is a garage scenerio I just needed to understand where you were getting '50' from. The cost effect of that would seriously impact construction. We already get told to reduce costs as it is.

R50 = Attic, not walls

Don't wish to discuss building code here, pm me if you wish to discuss. I simply wish to advise the gentleman on an effective system and cost.

 

[caboose56]

You missed the hyperthetical aspect of my post.... reread again. Like I said I was throwing numbers out for comparison. I don't pay for electricity where I am so dont know the cost per hour. I based my calc off of what buddy posted earlier.

If you're just making up numbers for a garage you're heating in the height of summer it isn't really a useful comparison.

 

[Freestyle72]

Your numberes are skewed.

- I highly doubt Mo will be out in the garage working every day.
- Weekends are off-peak.
- The garage won't need heating 12 months of the year. 4 or 5 months is more realistic.
- Your $108 annual savings estimate is probably closer to $50.

Pshhh.... Look who's talkin. OK OK you are right.

Truth is I work far far away from home so I won't be in theire except for 33% of the time that anyone else could be in there.

R50 = Attic, not walls

Don't wish to discuss building code here, pm me if you wish to discuss. I simply wish to advise the gentleman on an effective system and cost.

Much appreciated dude I might get in touch with you about it.

My main concern with not insulating the place is sometimes it feels so cold in there that there that I feel it might be very difficult for a heater keep up. Thank god this winter has been very mild so far.

And as far as what Cat is saying I still believe she is correct in a sense. Maybe not as much savings, but as a percentage of use it can be significant. Our friend up there is using a 1500W heater... the constructions heaters that I know of are 4800W so right off the bat they are suckin 3 times the juice. I think I am coing to borrow a construction heater from work and see if it will heat the place first.