For those of you who filter

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Emefef said:
I don't think car works in that example, and maybe not even a trike or sidecar rig, because even though the HTA may be silent on some things, a vehicle still must be driven as nearly as may be practicable entirely within a single lane (s154). For a car to squeeze between two others it would likely be straddling the dividing line.
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And why does this logic not apply to a motorcycle? There is more to a bike than just the tire track. My neighbour's ninja 250 is parked outside, I just measured the mirror-span at 33".

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caboose483 said:
And why does this logic not apply to a motorcycle? There is more to a bike than just the tire track. My neighbour's ninja 250 is parked outside, I just measured the mirror-span at 33".

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Excellent point, it should apply. It's just more obvious with a multi-track vehicle.
 
LePhillou said:
Or the Nexus pass at the border

Youre special so you go through faster.
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Nexus is legal, nobody will shout at u for using nexus

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awyala said:
Google map Lakeshore and Kipling and tell me what you think. 2 lanes, enough room for 3 full SUV's.
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There's a whole section of Lakeshore for which I would agree. It's marked as two and could easily be driven as three.
Your earlier post was about 3 marked lanes which could hold 4 lines of traffic.
If this debate was based on a misunderstanding, and Lakeshore is your example, you make a fine point - if the vehicle (bike or bigger) is travelling up the outside in the space that could probably be marked as a lane.
However, if the filtering is being done along a dividing line and their already vehicles on each side of that line, I maintain my position.
Also, I'm not I'm not suggesting because I didn't include it that I agree with riding up the curb like a bicycle. Lakeshore is an exception. I'm sure there are others like that too.
 
caboose483 said:
Is that a yes or a no?

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It is a yes. Look it up. Lanes are not the determining factor of sufficient space in the HTA, "lines" of vehicles are the determining factor. And even when "lines" are not available, exceptions are made for straddling lanes or even using oncoming lanes to make passes, as long as it is done with safety.

So again "yes", the HTA is rife with examples of "not waiting in line". If space is available within the boundaries of safety, it is fair game, whether it be a car, bike, or trailor moving a house.
 
Emefef said:
There's a whole section of Lakeshore for which I would agree. It's marked as two and could easily be driven as three.
Your earlier post was about 3 marked lanes which could hold 4 lines of traffic.
If this debate was based on a misunderstanding, and Lakeshore is your example, you make a fine point - if the vehicle (bike or bigger) is travelling up the outside in the space that could probably be marked as a lane.
However, if the filtering is being done along a dividing line and their already vehicles on each side of that line, I maintain my position.
Also, I'm not I'm not suggesting because I didn't include it that I agree with riding up the curb like a bicycle. Lakeshore is an exception. I'm sure there are others like that too.
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Once again, safety and available space is the crux of the matter, not lanes, and not the concept of a queue. Though I agree with your sociological argument, that can change with social acceptence as it is already doing so, as congestion increases and more people turn to compact vehicles, including scooters, ebikes, motorcycles, what have you.

15 years ago there was no commuter motorycle culture, rather it was mostly sunny sunday squid riders. Low capactiy bikes were culturally shameful and every late teen was jumping on an R6 with an M1. Things have changed, and commuting on a bike and a European biking sensibility has caught on....which includes filtering....low capacity bikes....and insurance rates that restrict litre bikes to mid life criseses.
 
awyala said:
It is a yes. Look it up. Lanes are not the determining factor of sufficient space in the HTA, "lines" of vehicles are the determining factor. And even when "lines" are not available, exceptions are made for straddling lanes or even using oncoming lanes to make passes, as long as it is done with safety.

So again "yes", the HTA is rife with examples of "not waiting in line". If space is available within the boundaries of safety, it is fair game, whether it be a car, bike, or trailor moving a house.
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If you were in a 4-wheel vehicle and had enough room to filter, would you?

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caboose483 said:
If you were in a 4-wheel vehicle and had enough room to filter, would you?

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Yes, I would, and yes I do. The most common example is when there are a bunch of people waiting to go straight through an intersection, and I squeeze up the right hand side of the lane and 'split' past in order to turn right. This is, of course, lane-width permitting. In a 4-wheeled vehicle, it's usually only possible when the right hand side of the lane is marked for parking, but there are no parked vehicles.
 
Brian said:
Yes, I would, and yes I do. The most common example is when there are a bunch of people waiting to go straight through an intersection, and I squeeze up the right hand side of the lane and 'split' past in order to turn right. This is, of course, lane-width permitting. In a 4-wheeled vehicle, it's usually only possible when the right hand side of the lane is marked for parking, but there are no parked vehicles.
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I view it differently when you're turning at the intersection. I do that too.

What if you're going straight? If there are two marked lanes and two lines of cars but room between them for your cage. Would you filter?

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caboose483 said:
If you were in a 4-wheel vehicle and had enough room to filter, would you?

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Once AGAIN yes! See my Lakeshore and Kipling reference once again for the "if" situation you are refering to. Sheesh. I answered this 3 times already.

As long as the cars you are passing are not actually moving, you are not violating HTA 140, to "filter" past them. It is also wise to make sure your car has the power to accelerate and out pace the other cars because at some point you will likely need to pull in front. Even in the Lakeshore Kipling example, often that space in the right lane will become consumed by parked cars within 40 to 50m of the intersection. So in that instance, with enough space, no cars approaching the intersection, and enough HP to accelerate past the lead cars and merge back into the right lane, if it can all be done in safety, then YES I would filter in a 4 wheeled vehicle.

Motorcycles on the other hand dramatically increase the number of situations where this is safe and feasible, and legal.
 
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awyala said:
Once AGAIN yes! See my Lakeshore and Kipling reference once again for the "if" situation you are refering to. Sheesh. I answered this 3 times already.

As long as the cars you are passing are not actually moving, you are not violating HTA 140, to "filter" past them. It is also wise to make sure your car has the power to accelerate and out pace the other cars because at some point you will likely need to pull in front. Even in the Lakeshore Kipling example, often that space in the right lane will become consumed by parked cars within 40 to 50m of the intersection. So in that instance, with enough space, no cars approaching the intersection, and enough HP to accelerate past the lead cars and merge back into the right lane, if it can all be done in safety, then YES I would filter in a 4 wheeled vehicle.

Motorcycles on the other hand dramatically increase the number of situations where this is safe and feasible, and legal.
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You're crazy!

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awyala said:
Once AGAIN yes! See my Lakeshore and Kipling reference once again for the "if" situation you are refering to. Sheesh. I answered this 3 times already.

As long as the cars you are passing are not actually moving, you are not violating HTA 140, to "filter" past them. It is also wise to make sure your car has the power to accelerate and out pace the other cars because at some point you will likely need to pull in front. Even in the Lakeshore Kipling example, often that space in the right lane will become consumed by parked cars within 40 to 50m of the intersection. So in that instance, with enough space, no cars approaching the intersection, and enough HP to accelerate past the lead cars and merge back into the right lane, if it can all be done in safety, then YES I would filter in a 4 wheeled vehicle.

Motorcycles on the other hand dramatically increase the number of situations where this is safe and feasible, and legal.
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s140 is not the only applicable section when you're on a highway with divided lanes. Forget the example where the road is wide enough but not divided (Lakeshore).
Where it is divided, 154 also applies, and the vehicle must be driven entirely within a lane to the extent it is practical. Therefore, a motorist with multitrack vehicle cannot slide in between, straddling the dividing line simply because they fit. Staying behind one of the vehicles would allow them to stay entirely within a lane. However, if one of the vehicles was actually stopped at the curb and didn't move when the light changed, or in a better example, stopped at the curb mid-block, the motorist could straddle the dividing line to get around it.
I also submit that your position on passing stopped vehicles does not apply when the vehicles are stopped in compliance with a traffic signal. Neither of our position is explicitly mentioneds, at least that I can find, so we'll have to disagree on that one.
Passing as you've described it, is to allow you any way past traffic that you don't want to follow, as long as you believe it's done in safety. That's very subjective, and I don't believe that is the intent, nor the interpretation of those provisions or restrictions in the HTA.

A vehicle stopped or standing at the curb is different. You pass, allowing space to do so safely. The same is true for a slow moving vehicle or bicycle. These are the exceptions to the prevailing rate of speed - and if we didn't go around them they would slow traffic.
That is not true of your filtering argument. The traffic will not move noticeably faster or smoother because a bike filtered to the front. In fact, with no space at the front for bikes to spread out, more than one would likely cause a delay. I think four or five would certainly negatively affect the flow of traffic moving away at the green light.

If there are two clearly marked lanes, no dedicated turn lanes, and one car stopped at the limit line in each lane, you would argue that it is perfectly acceptable to stop between them if you could fit? To me, that's the epitome of the "me first" culture.
 
You know...there really isn't any point of debating this.

Lane splitting is illegal, it has been proven on this forum and to many of us personally (had a cop follow me home once to warn me that he could charge me for dangerous driving and throw me to prison for splitting).

You can argue that either side is the "ME FIRST" attitude.

The rider that goes in front wants to get ahead of everyone.
The driver that wants the rider to wait doesn't care that unless he has a GTR or something quicker (which you will RARELY see), he wouldn't be able to keep up with the bike if they both murdered the throttle at green.

Just do whatever the hell you want, as long as no one gets hurt or killed, who cares.
 
Emefef said:
s140 is not the only applicable section when you're on a highway with divided lanes. Forget the example where the road is wide enough but not divided (Lakeshore).

I am just citing 140 here, to stress, that even if there is room to filter, car or bike, filtering cannot be done next to "approaching" traffic within 30m of a pedestrian crossing, regardless of space. Traffic must be stopped to filter legally, space providing, if you are within 30m of an intersection. Other HTA laws apply of course.

Where it is divided, 154 also applies, and the vehicle must be driven entirely within a lane to the extent it is practical.

If determined safe to exit one's lane, then it is fine. 154 does not restrict driving entirely within the lane, and is meant as a law governing safe exiting of one's lane in order to pass. It is also meant to prevent extended periods of driving while straddling lanes. However "filtering" is not extended periods of driving and is actually a passing manouver if done in safety. Anyways this has all been discussed in length on several other threads. I won't go much further about the legality. I was just commenting on restrictions of filtering even with a 4 wheeled vehicle given sufficient room to do so. It wasn't meant to be a comprehensive legal break down.

Therefore, a motorist with multitrack vehicle cannot slide in between, straddling the dividing line simply because they fit. Staying behind one of the vehicles would allow them to stay entirely within a lane. However, if one of the vehicles was actually stopped at the curb and didn't move when the light changed, or in a better example, stopped at the curb mid-block, the motorist could straddle the dividing line to get around it.

Yes.


I also submit that your position on passing stopped (approaching triggers the application of 140, stopped vehicles is ok) vehicles does not apply when the vehicles are stopped in compliance with a traffic signal. Neither of our position is explicitly mentioneds, at least that I can find, so we'll have to disagree on that one.
Passing as you've described it, is to allow you any way past traffic that you don't want to follow, as long as you believe it's done in safety. That's very subjective, and I don't believe that is the intent, nor the interpretation of those provisions or restrictions in the HTA.

Yes again. "Safely" is subjective and often provokes roadside debates with cops and some road rage. Excercise filtering with that in mind. Giving the finger is not the best way to handle subjective disputes. Be safe out there peeps!

A vehicle stopped or standing at the curb is different. You pass, allowing space to do so safely. The same is true for a slow moving vehicle or bicycle. These are the exceptions to the prevailing rate of speed - and if we didn't go around them they would slow traffic.
That is not true of your filtering argument. The traffic will not move noticeably faster or smoother because a bike filtered to the front. In fact, with no space at the front for bikes to spread out, more than one would likely cause a delay. I think four or five would certainly negatively affect the flow of traffic moving away at the green light.

On the last point I am agreed. In the UK where I honed my splitting filtering craft, often bike queues would form in filtering situations. In this case a bike could not get to the front and when traffic began moving a bike would now be full on splitting, rather than filtering, or they would slot into a naturally opened gap. But as "splitting" was allowed in the UK, the bikes would continue to split and eventually all the bikes would, in short order, pass all the cars and the bikes would all be at the head of the line. So it worked quite well even in these cases. This would not work here, because the HTA's clauses prevent "splitting" (riding between moving traffic at speed). Not only is it not possible due to a couple clauses, but when "safety" is subjective, there is no precent (here) to argue it is safe. However where safety is subjective, it can be argued (successfully) that filtering in stopped traffic IS safe. This distinction makes filtering, where queues of bikes form in the gaps between cars, problematic. However, as bike numbers are low, and instances of filter queues are almost non-existent. I have never experienced it here at all, this is not a problem. When critical mass occurs and enough bikes are out there filtering to form filter queues, that will eventually tip the scales to allow for splitting. I am not worried about that possibility.

If there are two clearly marked lanes, no dedicated turn lanes, and one car stopped at the limit line in each lane, you would argue that it is perfectly acceptable to stop between them if you could fit? To me, that's the epitome of the "me first" culture.

I do it every day bud. I stop between them and am off like a bolt at the lights to have no net impact on them. I usually out pace them by 50+ meters by the time I get to the speed limit. I hold at the limit and usually by the next set of lights pack of speeding cars (all breaking the law) have caught up to me, so I add a few decameters buffer and keep ahead of the pack. The odd excessive speeder usually jumps ahead and more power to him. "Me first" culture you say? Funny how in those instances I didn't break any law, while the whole pack of cars behind me all did. Try getting to the front of any line and maintain the speed limit or go 5 below for safety and see about this "me first" culture you speak of.
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My comments in bold above.
 
油井緋色;1904180 said:
You know...there really isn't any point of debating this.

Lane splitting is illegal, it has been proven on this forum and to many of us personally (had a cop follow me home once to warn me that he could charge me for dangerous driving and throw me to prison for splitting).

You can argue that either side is the "ME FIRST" attitude.

The rider that goes in front wants to get ahead of everyone.
The driver that wants the rider to wait doesn't care that unless he has a GTR or something quicker (which you will RARELY see), he wouldn't be able to keep up with the bike if they both murdered the throttle at green.

Just do whatever the hell you want, as long as no one gets hurt or killed, who cares.
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Splitting and filtering are different.
 
so in that last example, with only one vehicle at the front of each lane, you filter through them rather than have one vehicle in front of you? The primary reason to do that is to be first. To get ahead. There's no congestion, You end up first and accelerate ahead to give you more space. They catch up anyway. If you intend to travel at the prevailing rate of speed, when the traffic is that light why wouldn't you just stay with the traffic?
Because you can fit, and because you can go faster.
Again, I don't believe the HTA is written in such a way that the fastest shall prevail, or if you can fit in a space, it's allowed.
The fact that there is a greater burden of proof required for proving careless or dangerous driving works in favour of filtering. I simply don't agree that it is completely legal because of the interpretations you've provided.
As i mentioned earlier though, I think the greater issue is acceptance by other motorists. That's a huge challenge to overcome, and I think the risk is much higher until it is either more widely accepted, or explicitly provided for in the Act.
I would prefer to see it legalized in such a manner that it works in our favour - that is, it allows us to move through, but not a bigger vehicle to pull up beside (although we can manage a lo of that with blocking positions). That would also allow for very specific situations in which it is allowed.

MFF
 
caboose483 said:
I view it differently when you're turning at the intersection. I do that too.

What if you're going straight? If there are two marked lanes and two lines of cars but room between them for your cage. Would you filter?

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If I had a vehicle that could fit and could out-accelerate most cars, I would probably do it, and be okay with anyone else who was able to do it. But again, I live in California, and lane sharing is legal here. As it stands, though, my non-motorcycle vehicle is an F350, so there aren't very many places that would accomodate me lane sharing in my truck. I also certainly wouldn't be able to out-accelerate anyone.
 
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