Fire Department bills me for nothing

Someone i know well was involved in a minor moto accident along with 3 others in mississauga. He does not live in this city, but does live in the GTA. He was fine except a small rash on the knee - the medics in the ambulance asked him if he needed anything as they were tending to the more seriously injured. He didn't think anything of it.. and its not like they did much besides put a small bandage around it.

From what i recall, he got a $250 bill a month later. Furiously called up the city and they lowered it down to 70 bucks.
 
This discussion is ridiculous. The concept that just because you pay taxes ( of which I pay plenty) that means every public service you can conceive of should be free is dumb.

I don't see threads complaining about the fee to get a passport (or a PAL, or a drivers' licence) or threads about how your taxes don't cover your meds.

No one complains that gasoline tax, HST, or liquor tax is "double billing" off your income tax.

You guys ever go to another province and see a doctor?
 
These guys are on the clock regardless. It's not like someone has to be called in and payed extra by that municipality. WTF, am I interrupting their workout, is that why I get billed?
 
This discussion is ridiculous. The concept that just because you pay taxes ( of which I pay plenty) that means every public service you can conceive of should be free is dumb.

I don't see threads complaining about the fee to get a passport (or a PAL, or a drivers' licence) or threads about how your taxes don't cover your meds.

No one complains that gasoline tax, HST, or liquor tax is "double billing" off your income tax.

You guys ever go to another province and see a doctor?

Not really dumb...if this practice exists then isn't it entirely reasonable to ask for a rebate when you're away from your home town as the services you pay a local premium for cannot be used at that time? A little like suspending your satellite TV coverage when you're on vacation. If however there is a reciprocal agreement then the system works as it should and no "out of town" premium should be necessary. Even if you argue that popular tourist locations are likely to have more "subscribers" to the emergency care then those locations are also likely to have more tourist tax dollars incoming to pay for it.

As for your other examples those are examples of things that aren't necessary but optional unlike emergency response.
 
I'm very curious as to how legal this is. They are providing and billing you for a service that you neither agreed to or needed.
 
What we really need is for dumb *** idiots to stop dialing 911 for everything and everything....He sees you go down, your bike hasnt even stopped and hes on the 911 call....Judge the damn accident, if you see the guy get up, stop, go and ask him how hes doing and if he would like 911 dialed....
 
This discussion is ridiculous. The concept that just because you pay taxes ( of which I pay plenty) that means every public service you can conceive of should be free is dumb.

I don't see threads complaining about the fee to get a passport (or a PAL, or a drivers' licence) or threads about how your taxes don't cover your meds.

No one complains that gasoline tax, HST, or liquor tax is "double billing" off your income tax.

You guys ever go to another province and see a doctor?

It's not ridiculous, and it's here because of the forum. There are lots of complaints about fees for other services, but this one was started because of a specific incident. A few posters have questioned whether others would have complained if the fire trucks didn't show....
I agree with the OP. If I was injured and unable to make a decision, or decided I needed assistance, I would certainly be grateful for the quick emergency service. However, having a bystander place the call and having more apparatus deployed than necessary (whatever the protocol may be) when ultimately I didn't require any emergency service would frustrate me. We have the OPP to patrol the 400 series highways, so the cost of patrolling and enforcement of the HTA is not a municipal responsibility, yet the cost of emergency services is. Perhaps the municipalities with 400 series highways running through them should by arguing for provincial funding for related calls. Better yet, cover the cost and show "tourists" that it is a great place to visit or travel through, rather than a place to avoid.
Being billed for the services by a municipality because you had the misfortune to crash outside the legal boundaries in which you reside is even more frustrating when we're all in the GTA. I don't mean this to sound flippant, but if the City of Brampton is going bill the OP because he was "responsible" for an incident that resulted in the deployment of services, who will take responsibility for the wildlife on the road? If the FD cleaned up the carcass, who gets charged when an unidentified motorist or a commercial vehicle creates a similar mess?
I don't think this discussion was about every public service being free, it was about a bill the OP couldn't pay, for a service that wasn't requested or required.
This could have an interesting impact on statistics for minor insurance claims after a few years. Most collisions occur within a short radius from home, and Toronto has the highest insurance rates - but claims will be even more expensive for residents of Toronto as crashes occur at the outer edges and outside the GTA.
 
These guys are on the clock regardless. It's not like someone has to be called in and payed extra by that municipality. WTF, am I interrupting their workout, is that why I get billed?

It is a lot cheaper having the guys hang out in the fire hall, than having them roaring around in that half a million dollar truck.
I bet if they never left the station that truck would last virtually forever.

Commercial entities have been paying service charges for the fire department as long as I can remember.
We were out in the back 40 at the shop, playing with oxy/acetelene and some garbage bags... then the fire department arrived. No one called, the station was two doors down... they saw the fire balls.
They showed us that you have to compress the gas in a balloon to get a REALLY BIG fire ball. We played for about an hour.
The owner got a bill for $750 from the fire service.
We weren't allowed to play out in the back 40 anymore.
That was 35 years ago.
 
If you have an accident out of town and emergency services are rendered the bill should go to the municipality that you pay taxes in. They don't do this because they know they can get more money out of the individual then the municipality would cough up.

It's all about money.
 
I think the moral of the story is: ride carefully. Not necessarily to avoid accidents, but so you survive long enough to become a financial burden on OHIP and other social services. A refund of sorts, for all the Nickle and Dime schemes foisted on us over the decades.
 
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You guys ever go to another province and see a doctor?

Yes. I also went to another province when I was living in Newfoundland still and went to a doctor. I just crossed the ferry and had a fever of ~41*C so I paid a visit to a hospital.
Why do you ask?

If you're wondering, YES IT WAS FREE. Newfoundland's MCP (Medical Care Plan), Ontario OHIP, and I would assume other provinces health plans; will work for up to 3 months after leaving the province.
This also includes into the states. Although that's a bit iffy. Basically you pay, and then send the government the receipt and they pay so much of it. I've heard horror stories of some people getting broken limbs, and the government only paying $200 towards it.

But, in a Canadian Province you just hand your card and it's taken care of.
 
Yes. I also went to another province when I was living in Newfoundland still and went to a doctor. I just crossed the ferry and had a fever of ~41*C so I paid a visit to a hospital.
Why do you ask?

If you're wondering, YES IT WAS FREE. Newfoundland's MCP (Medical Care Plan), Ontario OHIP, and I would assume other provinces health plans; will work for up to 3 months after leaving the province.
This also includes into the states. Although that's a bit iffy. Basically you pay, and then send the government the receipt and they pay so much of it. I've heard horror stories of some people getting broken limbs, and the government only paying $200 towards it.

But, in a Canadian Province you just hand your card and it's taken care of.

Are you trying to use one experience to generalize the entire workings of a system, because it sure sounds like it.

I know how it works, and your story is not always true, it also depends on the medical service. For example in ON you get charged to see a doctor about vaccinations, thats not true in other provinces. So the billing practices are not consistent and is partially determined by your service. I got billed to see a doctor in BC at one point when I was on vacation. The amount was small and I thought it was stupid, but it wasn't worth fighting for.

As for the out of country system. I also have first hand experience with denied claimes, the bill was close to 30,000. I wrote a threatening letter and got all 30,000 back.

In any case, that is all beside the point. The point I made in the entirety of my post is that:

(a) user fees are common, we pay for public transit, certain medical services, drivers licences, and a ton of other things that are also funded by taxes
(b) double taxation is also common, HST, liquor tax, GST, PST, Gasoline tax, cigarette tax, hell even CORPORATE TAX is double taxation.
(c) given the context, trying to pick on a fire department for sending out a few hundred dollars for a bill is just... lame.
 
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Yeah, I'm totally in favour of this practice, as long as every year that I don't use these services I get a rebate cheque, and while we're at it, why is everything that picks my pocket the new normal, and everything that can save me money I have no option to opt out of? Rationally I understand the argument, emotionally though, this sucks!
 
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Fire departments charging for responding to motor vehicle collisions is a very contentious subject. There are 478 fire departments in Ontario. About 100 charge for responses other than billing the MTO for responses to MVC's on Queen's Highways. Of those 100, many are fulltime departments trying to offset costs.

Some charge for all MVC's; some charge only non-residents. IN order to do it, quasi legally, they need to pass a municipal by-law. You might also ask how they got your information. Many police services share this information with fire departments. This is contrary to protection of privacy legislation and opens both the fire service and police service up to liability and litigation.

I find it immoral to charge a victim for a service they didn't request, personally.

There is debate on the legality of charging. They are charging for a service that you didn't request. There was no contract, actual or implied between you and the responding fire service. You have no obligation to pay. If you are a resident, they can try to tack it onto your taxes. You can fight it in a number of manners.

If you don't like it, complain. To the fire chief, to the mayor, to council, to the press.

Bottom line is, if you don't like it, take action. Anyone wanting further details on how to go about fighting this can PM me.
 
Yeah, I'm totally in favour of this practice, as long as every year that I don't use these services I get a rebate cheque, and while we're at it, why is everything that picks my pocket the new normal, and everything that can save me money I have no option to opt out of? Rationally I understand the argument, emotionally though, this sucks!

The Opting out comes from the public's refusal to vote for any sort of tax increase, however justified (look at the stupid HST GST PST debate in BC). This leaves almost all public projects to be underfunded, with the remainder to be filled with the indivduals that use that service. While this may be less appropriate for infrastruture projects or emergency services, I don't think its inappropriate for things like optional medical procedures, art galleries and "cultural" endeavours.

This is just like insurance, everyone pays, and when you claim on it, you pay the deductable. You sound like you prefer to just get billed for the full amount ( I don't think you realize how much that would really be), since you want some kind of "rebate" for not using it.
 
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I find it immoral to charge a victim for a service they didn't request, personally.

This may be true for getting charged for food you didn't order, but not that appropriate for emergency services.

The amount of complaining around here is amazing. people post about how they crash and no one tries to help them as they are bleeding and trying to get their bike off the road, and other people complain because people stopped to call 911 for them. Seriously...
 
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This may be true for getting charged for food you didn't order, but not that appropriate for emergency services.

The amount of complaining around here is amazing. people post about how they crash and no one tries to help them as they are bleeding and trying to get their bike off the road, and other people complain because people stopped to call 911 for them. Seriously...

I think the "complaining" is more of a surprised reaction. Obviously not everyone was aware of the practice that, at least according to Griffin's post, is not even widespread.
Some of your comparisons in the other posts are on point, but consumption taxes, especially on liquor and tobacco, are voluntary. The bill in question was for a service that was not requested or provided.
The complaints are about the billing practice, not the provision of emergency services, the quality of the services, or the intentions of well-meaning bystanders.

We don't pay when the police respond to a call, whether or not we live in the jurisdiction of the responding police service. We know we may pay a service charge for an ambulance ride to the hospital. Until now, many of us certainly didn't expect to pay for a fire crew to come out and ask if we're okay, just because we don't live in their city. It's not consistent across the municipalities, it's not well known, and unless we do a some research we aren't going to know until we get a bill. The actual cost is irrelevant, becuase they didn't charge a simple "user fee" or something similar. That number had to be some sort of itemized charge.

Landlords can get billed for too many false alarms at the same location. I'm okay with that, if it's a result of poorly maintained or inadequate monitoring system. But if John Q Public is going to get a $1,000 bill for hosing off deer guts from the highway, it's not okay. There is no recourse against wildlife, no damages to be awarded or reimbursements sought. Motorists have to accept that a collision with wildlife will result in an insurance claim or out of pocket expenses to repair their own vehicle. On the other side, the municipality in which the animal was hit can accept responsibility for their expenses related to the collision, especially when no direct service was provided to the motorist, resident or not.
 
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I think the "complaining" is more of a surprised reaction. Obviously not everyone was aware of the practice that, at least according to Griffin's post, is not even widespread.
Some of your comparisons in the other posts are on point, but consumption taxes, especially on liquor and tobacco, are voluntary. The bill in question was for a service that was not requested or provided.
The complaints are about the billing practice, not the provision of emergency services, the quality of the services, or the intentions of well-meaning bystanders.

We don't pay when the police respond to a call, whether or not we live in the jurisdiction of the responding police service. We know we may pay a service charge for an ambulance ride to the hospital. Until now, many of us certainly didn't expect to pay for a fire crew to come out and ask if we're okay, just because we don't live in their city. It's not consistent across the municipalities, it's not well known, and unless we do a some research we aren't going to know until we get a bill. The actual cost is irrelevant, becuase they didn't charge a simple "user fee" or something similar. That number had to be some sort of itemized charge.

Landlords can get billed for too many false alarms at the same location. I'm okay with that, if it's a result of poorly maintained or inadequate monitoring system. But if John Q Public is going to get a $1,000 bill for hosing off deer guts from the highway, it's not okay. There is no recourse against wildlife, no damages to be awarded or reimbursements sought. Motorists have to accept that a collision with wildlife will result in an insurance claim or out of pocket expenses to repair their own vehicle. On the other side, the municipality in which the animal was hit can accept responsibility for their expenses related to the collision, especially when no direct service was provided to the motorist, resident or not.

Consumption taxes are not voluntary. the HST isn't voluntary, unless you don't eat. Fees for driver's licences and passports, are for many people, necessities.

we pay for services we dont' need, use, or want all the time. its part of the social contract when we live in a democracy and elect our government. I don't support tax breaks for relgious institutions, OSAP for jerkoffs that use it to buy bikes. I don't want to pay for Quebec's retardedly amazing social services, or to revive an asbestos plant. I don't want to pay for a long gun registry or outdated streetcars.
I pay th Ontario Securities Commission to tell me that I am not allowed to invest in **** that I want to invest in "for my own protection".

Frankly. I pay tens of thousand dollars in taxes every year. and the focus on this particular 500 dollars on a service that really is meant to benefit the user, is completely unjustified. Unless you think Fire Departments should be telling the guy on the other end of the 911 call.. "oh the guy is walking around we are gonna just stay home... in the meantime can you go check if the bike is leaking gas, if we come out it's gonna cost money ya know..."

BTW, the fact that they showed up and you turned out to be ok is still a service that was provided, unless of course you think that they were just there on the way to McDonalds or something.
 
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I get your point but I think there is a fundamental issue here.

FD are charged and funded to deal with incidents in jurisdiction - WHO or Where the person involved in the incident originates is in my view irrelevant to that charged duty of care.

SAR will charge for a negligent or abusive use of their services but if I trigger an emergency beacon it does not matter one wit where I am from . They are funded to respond. They have an area to cover and respond in.

If however it is an abusive use of the service then charges would be correctly applied and SAR charges are astronomical.

In my view police and emergency responders are similarly funded and charged for their jurisdiction.

I have no problem with false alarm charges - it makes you careful arming etc.

Flat out I think the practice is wrong to charge anyone regardless of where they are from where it's not a case of abuse of service.

Here is the guide from the SAR site

Do I have to pay for Coast Guard or Coast Guard Auxiliary services?

The CCG and CCGA provide search and rescue services to mariners in distress free of charge.

This said, in non-emergency situations, CCG and CCGA vessels will not compete with private companies. Therefore, if a boat breaks down and requires towing services but is in no immediate danger, the mariner should endeavour to make their own arrangements for assistance while keeping the CCG informed for safety reasons. The CCG and CCGA will not provide these services if a suitable commercial towing company is available to provide the assistance.
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/eng/CCG/SA...Coast_Guard_or_Coast_Guard_Auxiliary_services
 
Really you got billed for them just showing up? I had them show up as well when I crashed..this was over 2 months ago in June but I haven't received any bill yet *fingers crossed* ...am I supposed to because I'm not a resident of the place where it happened? And I didn't make any claims on insurance either.

Give them a fake name and address, problem solved, I learn something new everyday, now after this thread no way in hell I'm giving my info to the fire department if they are called by someone else for something miniscule.
 
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