fighting rear plate ticket | GTAMotorcycle.com

fighting rear plate ticket

zeniceguy

zeniceguy

Well-known member
well I got one last summer in wassaga, long story.

now I have gotten my disclosure and am %90 ready to beat it but I would like to get one more thing first and cant find it.

I need to know at what angles the 407 cameras can take pictures on.
that way I have a facts to fight that my plate would be visible for electronic tolls.

if anyone can help that would be great

(cant go hit the 407 and wait for a bill)
 
If its any help? A Harley bagger with a tour PAC that has a 90' plate can not be read due to the overhang of the beer box, but a bagger with a lay down plate I'd guess almost 45' can be read, again not with the beer box. So if your plate was angled to the ground you might be SOL.
 
It makes no difference what happens with some other model of bike. For the specific owner of that specific bike that has that specific issue, THAT person (and only that person!) has the defence available of "That's the way the manufacturer built it. It's not my problem that your cameras weren't designed to accommodate this." provided that it is stock and unmodified. If you have some other bike that doesn't have that specific issue in stock form, you can't use this argument, and as soon as the license plate mounting is not stock, then the onus is on YOU, not on the original manufacturer, and not on the 407.

I don't know what angle the 407 cameras view from. A trip on the 407 from one exit to the next on the vehicle in question is probably the cheapest way to find out. Not pleasant in today's weather, and you would have to wait for the bill to show up.

(I'm another 407-avoider)
 
Did you get a ticket for "Evasion, etc., of electronic toll system (191.3)" or "Number plates, further violations
No other numbers to be exposed (13)"? If it was the first one and you have an electronic transponder then you are not avoiding the toll you need to argue your point that the officer just assumed this. As for the second one you need disclosure so you can challenge the method of determining how the plate is blocked. Both times I fought this ticket I got off and i'm far from a genius when it comes to this. Ironically both times I got this ticket was from Wasaga OPP...lol
 
Regardless of what you do now the crown could argue that any images or other form of proof your plate is not obstruced after the ticket cannot be admissable because they have no way of knowing if you altered the plate position after receiving the ticket.
 
Brian P said:
It makes no difference what happens with some other model of bike. For the specific owner of that specific bike that has that specific issue, THAT person (and only that person!) has the defence available of "That's the way the manufacturer built it. It's not my problem that your cameras weren't designed to accommodate this." provided that it is stock and unmodified. If you have some other bike that doesn't have that specific issue in stock form, you can't use this argument, and as soon as the license plate mounting is not stock, then the onus is on YOU, not on the original manufacturer, and not on the 407.

I don't know what angle the 407 cameras view from. A trip on the 407 from one exit to the next on the vehicle in question is probably the cheapest way to find out. Not pleasant in today's weather, and you would have to wait for the bill to show up.

(I'm another 407-avoider)
Click to expand...

This.

Should I presume that this ticket was received while on the 407? Did you receive a bill from the 407 ETR? If so, then that would be proof that the mounting of the plate was not in violation of that SPECIFIC section of the HTA.
 
cops pulled into wasaga beach parking lot after Chad and I walked our bikes back 3 spaces and pulled into the parking lot with no helmets on. (bikes where not running and on the shoulder) The bouncers where gonna keep an eye on the bikes for us while we had a pop. The cruiser we where riding in front of 15 minutes before (that did not pull me over) pulled in when he seen this. he was trying to start a fight with us about not having helmets on, we where very polite and obliging non the less.
while he was writing up Chads ticket about the helmet, he was looking at my bike and decided that my plate was not visible (but it was we where just a head of him 15min ago) So I explained the plate was where the old owner had his mounted and I had just passed safety and bought the bike 3 days before. he said to late.......

He has pictures up close of the plate but doesnt show its not visible
I have pictures showing from the rear in another car showing that it is.

because its mounted under the tail section I have to now show that the line of sight between the cameras and plate are not obstructed.
so with a level and an protractor I can prove this as long as I know what angle the cameras use.
 
Which section was the plate charge listed under? There are two separate possible sections, and for one the 407 cameras are immaterial.
 
There is a specific entry that speaks to visibility to an electronic toll system, but the majority of that section pertains to general visibility. If they got very specific, stating the section that pertains to electronic toll systems, then one might ask why police in an area without an electronic toll system would default to that charge? It should be 13(2), if anything.

Number plates, further violations

No other numbers to be exposed

13. (1) No number other than that upon the number plate furnished by the Ministry shall be exposed on any part of a motor vehicle or trailer in such a position or manner as to confuse the identity of the number plate. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 13 (1).

Number plate to be kept clean

2) Every number plate shall be kept free from dirt and obstruction and shall be affixed so that the entire number plate, including the numbers, is plainly visible at all times, and the view of the number plate shall not be obscured or obstructed by spare tires, bumper bars, any part of the vehicle, any attachments to the vehicle or the load carried. 1994, c. 27, s. 138 (7).

Obstruction prohibited

3) The number plates shall not be obstructed by any device that prevents the entire number plates including the numbers from being accurately photographed using a photo-radar system. 1993, c. 31, s. 2 (5).

Same

3.0.1) The number plates shall not be obstructed by any device that prevents the entire number plates including the numbers from being accurately photographed using a red light camera system. 1998, c. 38, s. 2 (1).

Same

3.1) The number plates shall not be obstructed by any device or material that prevents the entire number plates including the numbers from being identified by an electronic toll system. 1996, c. 1, Sched. E, s. 2 (1).

Offence

4) Every person who contravenes subsection (2), (3), (3.0.1) or (3.1) is guilty of an offence. 1993, c. 31, s. 2 (5); 1996, c. 1, Sched. E, s. 2 (2); 1998, c. 38, s. 2 (2).
 
Do you have a picyure of where the plate was mounted when you got the ticket?
 
ya, I will scan the cops pictures from the disclosure and add the pics of the bike from the rear when I get home from work (about 6)
 
it was 7(1)(b) improper display of plates

the ticket was 7(i)(b)(i) drive vehicle plate improperly displayed.
 
Is there any more information on the ticket than that? Section 7.1 of the HTA pertains to the "International Registration Plan." Section 13, which I quoted above, has no sub 7. Section 7 of "R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 628 - VEHICLE PERMITS" pertains to expiry of trailer permits. I have no idea what section, of what law, the officer was quoting. Perhaps that will be in the disclosure, if you make a full and proper request?
 
Permit requirements
7. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway unless,

(a) there exists a currently validated permit for the vehicle;
(b) there are displayed on the vehicle, in the prescribed manner,
(i) number plates issued in accordance with the regulations showing the number of the permit issued for the vehicle, or
(ii) number plates described in subsection (7.2) if the vehicle is an historic vehicle and the Ministry has issued a currently validated permit for it; and
(c) evidence of the current validation of the permit is affixed, in the prescribed manner, to,
(i) one of the number plates mentioned in subclause (b) (i) displayed on the vehicle, or
(ii) to a mini-plate attached to the number plate exposed on the rear of the vehicle, if number plates described in subsection (7.2) are displayed on the vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 7 (1); 2000, c. 29, s. 1 (1).
Click to expand...

7 1(b)(i)
that's talking about the sticker right?
 
dasiffy said:
7 1(b)(i)
that's talking about the sticker right?
Click to expand...

Damned brackets messing with my searches.....

It refers to both the plate AND the sticker. In that reference the 407 is immaterial. Where that section is concerned having the plate be completely unobscured and visible is the primary concern. Showing that the plate and sticker are clearly visible from the rear arch with absolutely no part of it occluded, and the sticker was valid at the time of the stop, should be all that's required to be compliant with that entire section.
 
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Unfortunately you're going to have a great deal of difficulty fighting that one, in my opinion. Even when viewed from the best possible angle, as in your photograph, a part of the plate is still occluded by the tail section.
 
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