Failure to Obey Sign Ticket. Worth fighting? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Failure to Obey Sign Ticket. Worth fighting?

joeboo

joeboo

Well-known member
My wife got a ticket for failure to obey sign. It happened at a Walmart driveway where the driveway is allegedly intended to be oneway. Problem is there is one sign marking it one way which does not face traffic. I would like to fight this ticket but my wife is apprehensive about it. I'm concerned more about insurance hit than price of the ticket.

Questions I have for GTAM.

Is a minor moving violation like this worth fighting?
Will our insurance see a hit?
Can I represent her in court, if so do we both need to be there?
Can anyone recommend a service that will fight to beat the charge and not just plea bargain?

This happened in Durham.

Thanks for your time GTAM.
 
Here's the view from the parking space my wife was in.

from%20parking%20lot.JPG


Here's the view going down the driveway.
on%20driveway.JPG


Here's the view at the bottom of the driveway.
bottom%20of%20driveway.JPG
 
Where is the one-way sign?

Theoretically, if you can show that the one-way sign was not visible from any reasonable location until too late, it should be thrown out, but with kangaroo court, you never know.

There is a series of books called the "Ontario Traffic Manual" that spell out the requirements for signs. You can buy them but I'm not sure which one is the right one. I've found a couple of free sources but not the one you need ... https://www.publications.serviceont...dedPath=TRAFFIC&productsView=0&loggedIN=false
 
coyo said:
And this looks remarkably like private property...
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That's what I was thinking. But is that the sign was on private property a defence to not be charged under HTA?

Also the sign is visible in the first picture from the parking lot. But the fact that you have to ask where the sign is shows that it isn't readily visible.
 
I still don't see it even having been told which picture it's in. Plead "not guilty" and go to first attendance with a high-res printed photo (don't forget to include the EXIF data that shows when the photo was taken - I've heard that some courts are anal about this), put the photo on the table with the ticket, ask the prosecutor where the "One way" sign is, and I betcha the ticket goes away - either because it was issued on private property, or because the signage does not meet the regulations.
 
What does the location say on the ticket?
Is it an HTA violation or a city by-law violation?
 
My initial thought is that since it's private property the ticket couldn't be issued anyway.
 
While it would be far better if there was a "do no enter" sign at the entrance to this lane I don't know how else you would sign a "one way" laneway, other than to have an arrow pointing in the direction of travel. From this standpoint the signage is not ideal, but likely meets legal requirements.

The private property angle is worth pursuing, though some laneways entering shopping malls are assumed/named roads.
 
Re insurance. If you and the Mrs. both have perfect driving records the one minor ticket won't likely cause any insurance pain. However if another transgression happens that could change. This one seems to be fightable but you never know about the next one.

If you have tickets on record even a little one can raise insurance rates.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
While it would be far better if there was a "do no enter" sign at the entrance to this lane I don't know how else you would sign a "one way" laneway, other than to have an arrow pointing in the direction of travel. From this standpoint the signage is not ideal, but likely meets legal requirements.

The private property angle is worth pursuing, though some laneways entering shopping malls are assumed/named roads.
Click to expand...

Thanks for you input Rob. I think it should have been a do not enter as opposed to a one way sign as well, that way the sign could face traffic. The one way sign is directly visible to about half the parking lot as it stands and the other half have to be looking for it.

nobbie48 said:
Re insurance. If you and the Mrs. both have perfect driving records the one minor ticket won't likely cause any insurance pain. However if another transgression happens that could change. This one seems to be fightable but you never know about the next one.

If you have tickets on record even a little one can raise insurance rates.
Click to expand...

Ya we both have clean records. But you never know when some overzealous cop would get you for 5 over or something.

dasiffy said:
What does the location say on the ticket?
Is it an HTA violation or a city by-law violation?
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coyo said:
^^^ This needs an answer. Or is it under the TPA?
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On the ticket it states contrary to HTA 182(2)
 
joeboo said:
Thanks for you input Rob. I think it should have been a do not enter as opposed to a one way sign as well, that way the sign could face traffic. The one way sign is directly visible to about half the parking lot as it stands and the other half have to be looking for it.
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I woulkd recommend returning to the lot and taking a timed and dated picture closer to the sign, from the position that a driver would be sitting in when approaching it. It could well be that a JP would see the signage as insufficient, as you would essentially be viewing the sign almost completely side-on.
 
I think the private property issue is your best bet so far, although the manner of signage is good too. Where exactly is this (address)?
 
No rules on private property isn't always slam dunk....
some plaza's have through-ways designated as highways (ie hta applies) You can check by looking at the zone blueprint (whatever it's called) which your city hall has and will show you.
some city by-laws like, handicap parking, are valid on private property. <- but since it's a HTA offence, that wouldn't matter.
 
This is bugging me. I STILL don't see the sign in ANY of the above photos. Someone take the graphic and circle where the sign is.

Is the one-way prohibition meant to prohibit traffic coming towards you as you look at the top photo, or prohibit traffic moving away from you? Being unable to see the sign, I don't know. I tend to suspect, from the angle at which the car in photo 3 is facing the driveway, that the intent is to prevent traffic in the direction moving away from the camera's viewpoint (i.e. the car in photo 3 is facing the wrong way).

If this is the case, then proper, compliant one-way signage would require at least one red circle with white strikethrough "do not enter" sign beside the driveway at the point beyond which traffic in that direction is prohibited (on a one-way roadway, this would be after each and every intersection) and one-way arrows showing the correct direction of traffic to any driver on a roadway intersecting the one-way road (again, at each and every intersection). All of these signs have to be of regulation size and shape and mounted at regulation height.

I had a security guard chew me out for going the wrong way in a parking lot at a customer's construction site ... I had no idea that it was one-way traffic (first time visiting that site). On my next visit, I paid attention ... there was one, tiny, non-regulation, hand-written sign on the side of the guard shack and that was it. Funny thing is that my job involves doing safety inspections ... so I got to chew THEM out for having inadequate signage!
 
Brian P said:
This is bugging me. I STILL don't see the sign in ANY of the above photos. Someone take the graphic and circle where the sign is.

Is the one-way prohibition meant to prohibit traffic coming towards you as you look at the top photo, or prohibit traffic moving away from you? Being unable to see the sign, I don't know. I tend to suspect, from the angle at which the car in photo 3 is facing the driveway, that the intent is to prevent traffic in the direction moving away from the camera's viewpoint (i.e. the car in photo 3 is facing the wrong way).

If this is the case, then proper, compliant one-way signage would require at least one red circle with white strikethrough "do not enter" sign beside the driveway at the point beyond which traffic in that direction is prohibited (on a one-way roadway, this would be after each and every intersection) and one-way arrows showing the correct direction of traffic to any driver on a roadway intersecting the one-way road (again, at each and every intersection). All of these signs have to be of regulation size and shape and mounted at regulation height.

I had a security guard chew me out for going the wrong way in a parking lot at a customer's construction site ... I had no idea that it was one-way traffic (first time visiting that site). On my next visit, I paid attention ... there was one, tiny, non-regulation, hand-written sign on the side of the guard shack and that was it. Funny thing is that my job involves doing safety inspections ... so I got to chew THEM out for having inadequate signage!
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Here you go:
 

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This is bugging me. I STILL don't see the sign in ANY of the above photos. Someone take the graphic and circle where the sign is.
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Brian P said:
This is bugging me. I STILL don't see the sign in ANY of the above photos. Someone take the graphic and circle where the sign is.
Click to expand...

I was in the same boat - couldn't see it and it was driving me crazy. Thanks for the assist guys.
 
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