Fail to produce insurance card, CONVICTED TODAY! Was produced on iPhone for cop!

[toysareforboys]

Some names and details have been changed to protect the innocent:

"My friend" got a ticket for failure to produce insurance card. Was pulled over by the police for something unrelated, when asked for insurance they showed them their iPhone with the e-mail from the insurance company (state farm) and opened the attached PDF and showed the cop the 30 day temp pink slip. The cop said that was "no good" and wrote a ticket for fail to produce.

Court date was today. I thought we had put together a really good case!!! My friend cross examined the cop, made him look silly for not mentioning in his notes that they showed him their cell phone with the pink slip on it, etc.

My friend had no printer or ability to physically print out the card that was e-mailed and the physical copy had not arrived yet (do they even mail it out anymore, when they e-mail it? I don't think my last one with state farm I ever received, just temp 30 day via e-mail then received the full policy slip in the mail like A DAY before my temp one expired)! My friend had a letter from their insurance company saying they were insured on the day of the ticket.

The cop said "There's no way to tell if the pink slip on the phone was real" to which my friend replied "So you are a trained document expert and can tell me with 100% certainty that the pink slip I pull out of my wallet right now is 100% authentic?"... "Ummm, no, but I could always call the insurance company!"... "THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT WITH MY DIGITAL PINK SLIP??!"... "We're not required to." LOL! ROFL!!!

Both the prosecutor and the judge agreed it was a valid argument, looked at some books, and had to actually break for a recess before rendering their decision.

The judge said "I looked in the dictionary of law, and it does not include DIGITAL cards in the scope of its definition. The law in question was created years ago and has not been updated since, and does not define 'card' in a way in which we can apply it in this case. Guilty".

I'm thinking it's about time they get with the times! C'mon, pink slip e-mailed to iPhone and physical copy never mailed! If this is how they're doing it now, gosh darn the law better be updated!

I'm thinking about filing for appeal. What do you think? Any suggestions?

-Jamie M.

 

[Macs]

I think that's absolutely worth appealing. If all goes well it'll set a great precedent. And if I'm correct you're representing your friend so there's no legal costs to eat, just time.

 

[toysareforboys]

I think that's absolutely worth appealing. If all goes well it'll set a great precedent. And if I'm correct you're representing your friend so there's no legal costs to eat, just time.

I've been repesenting people a lot lately, and the court has been pretty harsh in making sure that I'm not getting paid, etc., and it seems every time they recognize me, they give me and my clients a much harder time. So instead of representing people I've just been counselling people on how to do their own defence. I still attend for moral support, especially after they meet with the prosecutor and they scare them half to death, but the actual person does their own defence.

Looking over the "requirements for appeal" now. Looks like it's only if the judge made a mistake, not if "the law" is a mistake? hmmm.

-Jamie M.

 

[Macs]

Is it not viable to argue that the judge made an error due to an error in law? (I only have 2 semesters worth of undergrad law classes in so I apologise in advance if I noob fail)

 

[toysareforboys]

Is it not viable to argue that the judge made an error due to an error in law? (I only have 2 semesters worth of undergrad law classes in so I apologise in advance if I noob fail)

I have no semesters of law so I'm still noob

I guess if the judge is making decisions based on material with errors in it, it's safe to assume his decision is in error as well.

What are the “grounds” for an Appeal?

• you are found “guilty”, but the Justice of the Peace provided an insufficient rationale (he/she didn’t bother to connect all the dots or the evidence with the law) for your conviction.
• The Justice of the Peace dismissed a proper defence that was raised by yourself or your counsel (your lawyer or your paralegal).
• Your lawyer or paralegal screwed up and neglected to provide adequate or sufficient representation in the matter.

-Jamie M.

 

[redridernl]

The judge said "I looked in the dictionary of law, and it does not include DIGITAL cards in the scope of its definition. The law in question was created years ago and has not been updated since, and does not define 'card' in a way in which we can apply it in this case. Guilty".

I would assume that the reverse is also true. The law doesn't specifically exclude a digital copy.

 

[iFly55]

so do the courts accept print out copies of the temporary slip?

 

[toysareforboys]

I would assume that the reverse is also true. The law doesn't specifically exclude a digital copy.

Oh, I like that. My cell phone DOES have a card, an SD card, and I produced it for the officer as it had my insurance information "on it", but he did not accept the digital version. The law does not say this type of card is excluded

so do the courts accept print out copies of the temporary slip?

I would assume so, as that would fit the definition of "card". The law doesn't say it has to be original or from the actual insurance company.

-Jamie M.

 

[OpenGambit]

Your mention of "dictionary of law" is confusing / incomplete.

if you can pull the law in question ( because I am kinda tied up ) I can think about it a bit over the weekend if I get a chance.

 

[toysareforboys]

Your mention of "dictionary of law" is confusing / incomplete.

if you can pull the law in question ( because I am kinda tied up ) I can think about it a bit over the weekend if I get a chance.

Those are the exact words the judge used! lol.

The law:

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-c25/latest/rso-1990-c-c25.html#sec3subsec1

"3. (1) An operator of a motor vehicle on a highway shall have in the motor vehicle at all times, (a) an insurance card for the motor vehicle; or
(b) an insurance card evidencing that the operator is insured under a contract of automobile insurance,
and the operator shall surrender the insurance card for reasonable inspection upon the demand of a police officer. R.S.O. 1990, c. C.25, s. 3 (1)."


-Jamie M.

 

[nguyend]

Did you request disclosure prior to going to court? What was the premise for the police officer originally pulling him over? How incomplete were the officers notations in his logbook?

 

[toysareforboys]

Did you request disclosure prior to going to court? What was the premise for the police officer originally pulling him over? How incomplete were the officers notations in his logbook?

Yes. Illegal right turn. Notes were 100% complete and verbose EXCEPT for any mention of the driver showing him their cell phone, the pink slip on the cell phone, etc. But he admitted remembering it in court (luckily), and said he looked at it on the phone but didn't read the slip on the phone, just wrote the ticket for no card.

-Jamie M.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

From the Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act:

“insurance card” means,

(a) a Motor Vehicle Liability Insurance Card in the form approved by the Superintendent,
(b) a policy of automobile insurance or a certificate of a policy in the form approved by the Superintendent, or
(c) a document in a form approved by the Superintendent; (“carte d’assurance”)
​

Perhaps you could contact the FSCO and see what the actual regulations are? If the don't state a 'medium' for the 'card', then it doesn't necessarily preclude digital copies. Given that many insurers are indeed sending out digital copies of temp cards, it's at least a theory to try. The only 'form' that I could find was a PDF, of the card layout.

 

[Outlaws Justice]

Being from the states I was worried about this and actually a few weeks back I contacted my insurance agent to 1. make sure I am covered when I am across the border, and 2. see what I needed for documents. All of my insurance companies sent me out additional insurance cards for Canada that differe from my US cards so now I carry two insurance cards to satisfy both countries. I am very interested in this question as posted and I will continue to watch this thread.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Being from the states I was worried about this and actually a few weeks back I contacted my insurance agent to 1. make sure I am covered when I am across the border, and 2. see what I needed for documents. All of my insurance companies sent me out additional insurance cards for Canada that differe from my US cards so now I carry two insurance cards to satisfy both countries. I am very interested in this question as posted and I will continue to watch this thread.

When riding in Ontario, I recommend that you immediately place the US insurance card in some safe, locked place. Don't carry it with the Canadian version. In Ontario there's a fine for having two insurance cards. It's intended to combat fraud, but the interpretations by police tend to vary. I damned near got a ticket for having two; my recently expired card and the brand new one, both for the same policy number.

 

[toysareforboys]

From the Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act:

“insurance card” means,

(a) a Motor Vehicle Liability Insurance Card in the form approved by the Superintendent,
(b) a policy of automobile insurance or a certificate of a policy in the form approved by the Superintendent, or
(c) a document in a form approved by the Superintendent; (“carte d’assurance”)
​

Perhaps you could contact the FSCO and see what the actual regulations are? If the don't state a 'medium' for the 'card', then it doesn't necessarily preclude digital copies. Given that many insurers are indeed sending out digital copies of temp cards, it's at least a theory to try. The only 'form' that I could find was a PDF, of the card layout.

Wow, thanks for that. I take that it has to be (a) OR (b) OR (c) right? (EDIT: I see it has to be A along with either B or C )

I e-mailed the FSCO for an official list of "the forms approved by the Superintendent"

-Jamie M.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Wow, thanks for that. I take that it has to be (a) OR (b) OR (c) right? (EDIT: I see it has to be A along with either B or C )

I e-mailed the FSCO for an official list of "the forms approved by the Superintendent"

-Jamie M.

Nope, just any one of the three.

This < comma > That < comma > or The Other < period >

 

[toysareforboys]

Nope, just any one of the three.

This < comma > That < comma > or The Other < period >

That's what I initially though too, but the fact they put an "OR" at the end of the second line, I thought it meant the first was compulsory, and either b OR c have to apply.

If that's the case...

“insurance card” means,

(a) a Motor Vehicle Liability Insurance Card in the form approved by the Superintendent,
(b) a policy of automobile insurance or a certificate of a policy in the form approved by the Superintendent, or
(c) a document in a form approved by the Superintendent; (“carte d’assurance”)
​

I could sure as hell see a cell phone screen displaying the pink slip qualifying as "a policy of automobile insurance".

That's why I think it's (a) AND (b) or (c). It has to be (a) an Insurance Card in approved form AND (b) an automobile insurance policy.

-Jamie M.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

That's what I initially though too, but the fact they put an "OR" at the end of the second line, I thought it meant the first was compulsory, and either b OR c have to apply.

If that's the case...

“insurance card” means,

(a) a Motor Vehicle Liability Insurance Card in the form approved by the Superintendent,
(b) a policy of automobile insurance or a certificate of a policy in the form approved by the Superintendent, or
(c) a document in a form approved by the Superintendent; (“carte d’assurance”)
​

I could sure as hell see a cell phone screen displaying the pink slip qualifying as "a policy of automobile insurance".

That's why I think it's (a) AND (b) or (c). It has to be (a) an Insurance Card in approved form AND (b) an automobile insurance policy.

-Jamie M.

If the law was to be read in the way that you initially thought then it would have been written like this:

“insurance card” means a Motor Vehicle Liability Insurance Card in the form approved by the Superintendent,

(a) a policy of automobile insurance or a certificate of a policy in the form approved by the Superintendent, or
(b) a document in a form approved by the Superintendent; (“carte d’assurance”)
​

... but it wasn't written that way. The potential stumbling block is "in the form approved by the Superintendent." That's why you need more information, which the FSCO should be able to supply.

 

[toysareforboys]

If the law was to be read in the way that you initially thought then it would have been written like this:

“insurance card” means a Motor Vehicle Liability Insurance Card in the form approved by the Superintendent,

(a) a policy of automobile insurance or a certificate of a policy in the form approved by the Superintendent, or
(b) a document in a form approved by the Superintendent; (“carte d’assurance”)
​

... but it wasn't written that way. The potential stumbling block is "in the form approved by the Superintendent." That's why you need more information, which the FSCO should be able to supply.

Thanks for the clarification

I asked the FSCO specifically what the "forms approved by the superintendent" are

Will keep ya posted.

-Jamie M.