F35

[caboose56]

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Re: MacKay’s defence of F-35 price gap doesn’t add up

i will keep posting facts

I asked you to cite your sources for some previous 'facts' and you have not done so. It's also not the first time you've ignored that request from me.

 

[Freestyle72]

Re: MacKay’s defence of F-35 price gap doesn’t add up

Just to clarify "facts" are usually not regarded as fact until they are confirmed from a credible source.

Until you can produce one afong56, maybe you should use another word like " I will keep posting claims"

 

[afong56]

Re: MacKay’s defence of F-35 price gap doesn’t add up

Just to clarify "facts" are usually not regarded as fact until they are confirmed from a credible source.

Until you can produce one afong56, maybe you should use another word like " I will keep posting claims"

so can you overcome your own partisanship and point some of your bleatings at posters stumping for the harpo party line? didn't think so

hypocrites.

i have asked for sources from posters here, and have not gotten them either. largely because they probably don't exist.

frankly, i've posted more sources than most of the posters here, combined.

FACT:

in this thread, number of on-topic cited sources used:

opposing f35 boondoggle: five (5) citations
cited sources by me : four (4)

neutral posting from dnd: one (1)

supporting f35 purchase : zero (0)

that's right, zero.

so frankly this bleating for sources is comical. tell me, which posters here have a credibility issue???

 

[sonnythebull]

Re: MacKay’s defence of F-35 price gap doesn’t add up

apparently you missed the part where i dismissed your analogy. your penny-ante company is peanuts compared to the money we are talking about, and frankly to attempt an analogy between a small business and a multi-billion dollar government procurement contract is flat out wrong. it is not apples to oranges and fails at its root. your 'credentials' as a small business owner in this discussion are meaningless. why bother addressing a false analogy and thus give it legitimacy it doesn't deserve?

lol, weak sauce, as usual

i spend millions a year. good enough? what do you spend running on running a business or living? if im penny ante you dont exist

 

[afong56]

Re: MacKay’s defence of F-35 price gap doesn’t add up

i spend millions a year. good enough? what do you spend running on running a business or living? if im penny ante you dont exist

actually, no. i have already written this a few times, and yet you consistently miss the point. your analogy is worthless. in drawing a comparison to the f35 purchase, NEITHER of our personal fiscal experiences are relevant, and your experiences are no more or less relevant than mine.

you also seem to miss the point about this being a government purchase, not private enterprise. somehow you also failed to read the cited sources where the dnd and mackay acknowledged in 2010 what the proper protocols were, and then lied to the public claiming that they didn't know.

fail again.

in fact, the more relevant number might be how much of our taxpayers' dollars are being boondoggled here. i'm willing to wager that my household tax burden is larger than a lot of the harpo sycophants here. people should be red hot ****** about how our tax dollars are being wasted.

 

[mmmnaked]

Im all for some of my taxes going to the purchase of F35s so speak for yourself.

 

[afong56]

NAILED IT:

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012...-is-at-stage-5-while-the-subs-are-at-stage-7/

[h=2]The Nine Stages of DND Boondoggles: The F-35 Is At Stage 5 While the Subs Are At Stage 7[/h]
The F-35 may be the most expensive Canadian government program ever mired in a procurement scandal, but it hardly represents the first time that a full-blown boondoggle has emerged from the Department of National Defence.
Based on years of experience watching DND at work, we offer as a public service the following guide to the nine standard stages through which a typical DND procurement boondoggle proceeds:
1. The program is announced
Our brave servicepeople deserve the very best equipment available and that’s just what the program we are announcing today offers. It will provide the best value for money of all the alternatives, all of our closest allies will be using it, and if we don’t get on board now this golden opportunity will be lost and Our Seat at The Table will be taken away from us. Best of all, this contract will create tens of thousands of well-paying jobs!
2. Critics are demonizedAnyone who denies the obvious truths in the above talking points is a fool, an idiot, a traitor, a lover of terrorists, a knee-jerk anti-American, a partisan hack willing to endanger our brave servicepeople for cheap political points, or a combination of all of the above.
3. The “appeal to authority”
Yes, there are lots of ill-informed critics of the program out there grinding the usual axes, but retired generals, DND-funded academics, former journalists who have been appointed to the Senate, and the serious people in government who have access to classified data about the program know the truth about how entirely excellent and necessary this program really is. Trust us!
4. Baffle ‘em with bullsh!t
Every new program has teething problems, especially when you’re integrating 8th generation, networked, C4ISR technologies at the bleeding edge of the Revolution in Military Affairs. But how are we going to punch above our weight and win respectand real influence in world capitals without the hard power capability to conductkinetic operations that this strategic asset will give us? It’s a vital force multiplier for the future three-block wars and other Peace Support Operations of our multipolar world of failed and failing states. And let’s not forget the competitive edge that participating in this program will give our industries in the increasingly globalized marketplace, creating tens of thousands of well-paying jobs!
5. That was then…
Yes, of course there were problems with the program. Everybody knew that all along. But that’s old news. Nobody was at fault, and the government has taken steps to make sure those problems were dealt with. It’s all good from now on. The system works!
6. Follow the sunk costs
It’s too late to change horses now. We’ve already spent $857 million on the program, and if we were to pull out now it would cost a further $553 million in cancellation fees, not to mention tens of thousands of lost jobs. If we’d had a crystal ball, maybe we could have done things differently, but nobody could have anticipated the problems that beset this vital procurement. Cancelling it now would just throw away the money we’ve spent so far and leave us without this crucial strategic capability, weakening our defences and infuriating our closest allies. The best option now is to push on.
7. It’s (almost) ready to go!
Let’s not dwell on the problems of the past. The program is almost completed! Just another few months/years and another $731 million in upgrades/technical fixes and this project will provide an excellent and vital capability that will make a major contribution to Canadian security and collective operations with our allies.
8. Operational capability achieved
The system has entered into service! (…at a mere 2.3 times the originally estimated cost and half the originally estimated capability.)
And all too soon afterwards…
9. The system is out of date and overdue for retirement
The system has served us well but it is now obsolete. It needs 17.8 hours of maintenance for every hour of field operation, replacement parts are no longer available, and the systems are incompatible with the new generation equipment now being introduced into service by our closest allies. We have therefore initiated a Service Life Extension and Operational Capability Upgrade of the system at an estimated cost of $1.3 billion. According to longstanding DND standard operating procedures, the equipment must be retired or sold within 1-5 years of the completion of this program. To prevent a growing commitment-capability gap, we must open the Next-Generation Project Office immediately!
——
The Victoria/Upholder-class submarine boondoggle is currently in stage 7 of this process. It is not yet clear when or even if all four of the subs will enter full service, but since they are already 20 years old, planning for their Service Life Extension and Operational Capability Upgrades is probably already underway. Expect them to be scrapped, or sold to India, shortly thereafter.
The F-35 boondoggle, on the other hand, is now in stage 5, thanks to the Auditor General. The Parliamentary Spokesman of the Department of National Defence (who officially bears the title of Minister but exercises no control over the department and is not held responsible for its actions) has already begun the process of redeploying the aircraft to stage 6.

 

[sonnythebull]

NAILED IT:

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012...-is-at-stage-5-while-the-subs-are-at-stage-7/

The Nine Stages of DND Boondoggles: The F-35 Is At Stage 5 While the Subs Are At Stage 7


The F-35 may be the most expensive Canadian government program ever mired in a procurement scandal, but it hardly represents the first time that a full-blown boondoggle has emerged from the Department of National Defence.
Based on years of experience watching DND at work, we offer as a public service the following guide to the nine standard stages through which a typical DND procurement boondoggle proceeds:
1. The program is announced
Our brave servicepeople deserve the very best equipment available and that’s just what the program we are announcing today offers. It will provide the best value for money of all the alternatives, all of our closest allies will be using it, and if we don’t get on board now this golden opportunity will be lost and Our Seat at The Table will be taken away from us. Best of all, this contract will create tens of thousands of well-paying jobs!
2. Critics are demonizedAnyone who denies the obvious truths in the above talking points is a fool, an idiot, a traitor, a lover of terrorists, a knee-jerk anti-American, a partisan hack willing to endanger our brave servicepeople for cheap political points, or a combination of all of the above.
3. The “appeal to authority”
Yes, there are lots of ill-informed critics of the program out there grinding the usual axes, but retired generals, DND-funded academics, former journalists who have been appointed to the Senate, and the serious people in government who have access to classified data about the program know the truth about how entirely excellent and necessary this program really is. Trust us!
4. Baffle ‘em with bullsh!t
Every new program has teething problems, especially when you’re integrating 8th generation, networked, C4ISR technologies at the bleeding edge of the Revolution in Military Affairs. But how are we going to punch above our weight and win respectand real influence in world capitals without the hard power capability to conductkinetic operations that this strategic asset will give us? It’s a vital force multiplier for the future three-block wars and other Peace Support Operations of our multipolar world of failed and failing states. And let’s not forget the competitive edge that participating in this program will give our industries in the increasingly globalized marketplace, creating tens of thousands of well-paying jobs!
5. That was then…
Yes, of course there were problems with the program. Everybody knew that all along. But that’s old news. Nobody was at fault, and the government has taken steps to make sure those problems were dealt with. It’s all good from now on. The system works!
6. Follow the sunk costs
It’s too late to change horses now. We’ve already spent $857 million on the program, and if we were to pull out now it would cost a further $553 million in cancellation fees, not to mention tens of thousands of lost jobs. If we’d had a crystal ball, maybe we could have done things differently, but nobody could have anticipated the problems that beset this vital procurement. Cancelling it now would just throw away the money we’ve spent so far and leave us without this crucial strategic capability, weakening our defences and infuriating our closest allies. The best option now is to push on.
7. It’s (almost) ready to go!
Let’s not dwell on the problems of the past. The program is almost completed! Just another few months/years and another $731 million in upgrades/technical fixes and this project will provide an excellent and vital capability that will make a major contribution to Canadian security and collective operations with our allies.
8. Operational capability achieved
The system has entered into service! (…at a mere 2.3 times the originally estimated cost and half the originally estimated capability.)
And all too soon afterwards…
9. The system is out of date and overdue for retirement
The system has served us well but it is now obsolete. It needs 17.8 hours of maintenance for every hour of field operation, replacement parts are no longer available, and the systems are incompatible with the new generation equipment now being introduced into service by our closest allies. We have therefore initiated a Service Life Extension and Operational Capability Upgrade of the system at an estimated cost of $1.3 billion. According to longstanding DND standard operating procedures, the equipment must be retired or sold within 1-5 years of the completion of this program. To prevent a growing commitment-capability gap, we must open the Next-Generation Project Office immediately!
——
The Victoria/Upholder-class submarine boondoggle is currently in stage 7 of this process. It is not yet clear when or even if all four of the subs will enter full service, but since they are already 20 years old, planning for their Service Life Extension and Operational Capability Upgrades is probably already underway. Expect them to be scrapped, or sold to India, shortly thereafter.
The F-35 boondoggle, on the other hand, is now in stage 5, thanks to the Auditor General. The Parliamentary Spokesman of the Department of National Defence (who officially bears the title of Minister but exercises no control over the department and is not held responsible for its actions) has already begun the process of redeploying the aircraft to stage 6.

Nailed the liberals on the Victoria upholder class submarines?? So it seems to be more a DND issue than a " harpo" issue. On another note you really need to get laid at least once in your life. I can't imagine someone so uptight and who uses the term fail and weak sauce so much getting any women. Just trying to help!

 

[Kool]

Nailed the liberals on the Victoria upholder class submarines?? So it seems to be more a DND issue than a " harpo" issue. On another note you really need to get laid at least once in your life. I can't imagine someone so uptight and who uses the term fail and weak sauce so much getting any women. Just trying to help!

Lmao... Liberals lost the election ...they still have no leader... and they want back in power...but their broke as a party...what does all this say?

 

[mmmnaked]

^ its a HARPO CONSIPIRACY, man

 

[caboose56]

^ its a HARPO CONSIPIRACY, man

I'm positive that the Cormorant disaster is also somehow the fault of Stephen Harper's government.

 

[viper84737]

No mention of how else this $10B could be used to generate the $10B required for F35s? Too inside-the-box for my liking.

Eisenhower threw down some Interstate highways and turned America from a backwater hillbilly farming state to, uhh, well, you get the idea... Interstate infrastructure (in this example) was an excellent investment in allowing America to flourish into a state where it would much more easily be able to afford {whatever else, some stuff, some other stuff too}. And yes, I am well aware of how much in debt the US is from monies wasted on wars that were wholly unprofitable to the US relative to any dollar spent on them (and also not profitable in other less tangible means for America itself as a country, too).

My point remains: Why are people (you, other Canadians, politicians, etc) not thinking about more intelligent ways to provide value to the rest of the world to trade it for more future value to Canada, such that later on, $10B for F35s would be more readily available?

Food for thought.

 

[mmmnaked]

No mention of how else this $10B could be used to generate the $10B required for F35s? Too inside-the-box for my liking.

Eisenhower threw down some Interstate highways and turned America from a backwater hillbilly farming state to, uhh, well, you get the idea... Interstate infrastructure (in this example) was an excellent investment in allowing America to flourish into a state where it would much more easily be able to afford {whatever else, some stuff, some other stuff too}. And yes, I am well aware of how much in debt the US is from monies wasted on wars that were wholly unprofitable to the US relative to any dollar spent on them (and also not profitable in other less tangible means for America itself as a country, too).

My point remains: Why are people (you, other Canadians, politicians, etc) not thinking about more intelligent ways to provide value to the rest of the world to trade it for more future value to Canada, such that later on, $10B for F35s would be more readily available?

Food for thought.

Because we need new jets now, not in 30 years. And as I've stated countless times, the expenditure accounts for something like 0.5% of our annual federal program spending. We can use the other 99.5% to build future value to Canada.

 

[viper84737]

Because we need new jets now, not in 30 years. And as I've stated countless times, the expenditure accounts for something like 0.5% of our annual federal program spending. We can use the other 99.5% to build future value to Canada.

If we spent it on that other stuff, maybe we wouldn't need those jets at all, hmm? (yeah yeah, I know, that's a bit of a long shot, but again, you must admit the point stands)

 

[afong56]

Nailed the liberals on the Victoria upholder class submarines?? So it seems to be more a DND issue than a " harpo" issue. On another note you really need to get laid at least once in your life. I can't imagine someone so uptight and who uses the term fail and weak sauce so much getting any women. Just trying to help!

Lmao... Liberals lost the election ...they still have no leader... and they want back in power...but their broke as a party...what does all this say?

^ its a HARPO CONSIPIRACY, man

I'm positive that the Cormorant disaster is also somehow the fault of Stephen Harper's government.

all of these responses, yet not one substantive post that supports the f35 boondoggle. . .

colour me surprised, lol. . .

you guys have nothing, you're just spinning wheels hoping no one notices you are the ones without credible sources for your 'facts'. . .

a whole lot of logical fallacies and personal attacks, pathetic.

guess you can't stick to the issue if you don't have any ammo for your point of view, eh???

fun game: look through your posts and spot which stage of the boondoggle your post is. . .lol

NAILED IT.

 

[afong56]

If we spent it on that other stuff, maybe we wouldn't need those jets at all, hmm? (yeah yeah, I know, that's a bit of a long shot, but again, you must admit the point stands)

don't bother using logic or facts. . .they don't need any or use them, so your efforts are wasted. . .they are too busy falling in the harpo party-line, lol

 

[caboose56]

you guys have nothing, you're just spinning wheels hoping no one notices you are the ones without credible sources for your 'facts'. . .

I have dry skin on my forearms from spending too much time on the aero bars on my tri-bike. I have coconut scented moisturizer that I like to use. Is that too girly?

 

[afong56]

I have dry skin on my forearms from spending too much time on the aero bars on my tri-bike. I have coconut scented moisturizer that I like to use. Is that too girly?

nah, not really. . .change up the scent once in awhile, switch to the hoods or the drops more often, you'll be fine. or investigate better pads for your aero bars. . .maybe you're getting chafing?

in other, on topic, news:

f35 boondoggle:

no cost certainty
gov't lied to canadian people
no due diligence or transparency
they signed a blank cheque with our tax dollars

 

[mmmnaked]

If we spent it on that other stuff, maybe we wouldn't need those jets at all, hmm? (yeah yeah, I know, that's a bit of a long shot, but again, you must admit the point stands)

Yeah world peace man, groovy!!!


A bit of a longshot? Wake up.

 

[Gnu]

all of these responses, yet not one substantive post that supports the f35 boondoggle. . .

colour me surprised, lol. . .

you guys have nothing, you're just spinning wheels hoping no one notices you are the ones without credible sources for your 'facts'. . .

I'm waiting for your "substantive post" or "facts". Your link is to a BLOG! A blog with someones opinion based on the "facts" he brings forward. So the writer is Bill Robinson. In your link here is his "bio"
" Editor’s Note: Bill Robinson has observed DND equipment programs for decades now, first in his role with Project Ploughshares and now with the Rideau Institute."
Oh, he's "observed" DND equipment programs for decades, not he's been an insider or involved in it, just "observed" like if I watch enough medical programs, I'm a medical expert. Well let's look at his Project Ploughshares involvement. This is direct from their website:
Vision

A secure world without war • A just world at peace

Project Ploughshares operates under the belief, shared by all of our sponsoring churches, that

• War is to be and can be avoided
• Project Ploughshares was established as an agency of The Canadian Council of Churches to give practical expression to the fulfillment of God's call to bear witness to peace, reconciliation and non-violence and to contribute to the building of a national and international order that will serve the goals of peace with justice, freedom and security for all.

LOL... Ok I can see how he can give an impartial view of any type of "war machine" with a positive blog. Well there always his Rideau Institute experience...

The Rideau Institute can win coverage for your reports, place opinion columns in daily newspapers, or organize your press conference in Ottawa for the National Press Gallery.
We will work with you to identify your policy goals, and then create an event and policy meetings to help advance your agenda.

Wow, sounds like a legitimate research company and not at all like a propaganda mill.

You really NAILED IT!!!

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