Ethanol free gas

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ifiddles said:
right now, the remaining mixture of ethanol/water is still in the washer fluid jug...the ethanol free fuel is in a jerry can...he's thinking of taking it to the landfill and dispose of it at the hazardous goods section (same place we go to when we have used oil to get rid of)...not sure if they'll take, but hopefully they will...
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FYI, the hazardous waste depot nearest me accepts gasoline, but it must be in a proper certified container (red jerry can) and they KEEP the container. It depends on the guy manning the station, but officially they don't want gas showing up in washer fluid jugs.
 
TK4 said:
Fuel economy drop with 10% ethanol is roughly 3%, not enough to worry about unless you're on the Dempster Highway trying to make the next gas station.
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On a road trip to the south coast a number of years ago in our old minivan I saw an extra >100km across several full tanks using non ethanol 87 in the USA vs regular 87 ethanol. When you're doing a 6000km trip and you hand calculate your fuel economy across lots of full tanks it was easy to see, and repeatable. The tank was something around 100L, so some simple math shows it was a 10% difference in this case.

Yes, wind direction, terrain, etc would effect it as well (speed was consistent), but even allowing for all that it was more than 3%.
In the end I agree it's probably much less of a difference now versus in the past as engines and vehicle computers have been programmed to better utilize it, but it's still a misnomer to suggest that it *improves* fuel economy as some claim.
 
Making more power on ethanol-containing fuel is indicative of the fuel delivery being too rich.

Watch out. Some of those air cooled 2 strokes depended on being "too rich" in order to not grenade. Lots of stories about two-strokes running their best just before seizing.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Don't count on it anymore. I have a family member with a 35' twin aft cabin express cruiser so needless to say we're familiar with fueling up "on the water". At several marinas last summer along the Trent we were told they only had regular 87, or ethanol 91 - NO non ethanol. Supply was getting difficult for them already last summer reportedly.
In the marine environment, this will actually be a big issue for SOME vessels for sure. In the case of my family members boat it's less of a big deal as the engines run fine on 87, and the fuel tank is in the very bottom of the hull and isolated from big temperature swings that cause the tank to "breathe" in and out a lot and draw in moisture that separates into water in the tank. But on other small boats with exposed fuel tanks that get baked in the sun through the day and then contract and draw in moist air overnight, over and over again all summer long, especially if they're sitting, bigger deal. Things like Jetskis that also get baked and have tanks subject to these temperature swings, also a big deal. It's going to be very prudent for the owners of these sorts of things to ensure they burn out the fuel regularly, or install water separators or something.
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I have never had trouble getting marine gas, quite frankly I've never seen ethanol at a marine pump! Anything is possible, and maybe a supply issue meant e10 was better than no gas.

Egas has pros and cons when used in boats - mostly cons.

Pros: Water management. You will always have fewer water issues with E-gas than non-E-gas in a marine toy. Egas doesn't reach collect moisture from the air above, it gets moisture from the same place non Egas gets it -- liquid intrusion and condensation. The difference is Egas will hold up to 0.5ml water per Litre of fuel in solution, where regular gas leaves that water at the bottom of the tank.

It's moot for most mariners, the the boisterous marine ride puts water into suspension and it's carried off to the engine with whatever gas you use.

In 40 years as a mariner, I have never seen or had an issue with water in fuel from condensation.

Cons: Lower energy, E10 gas has about 3% less energy. Without getting too deep in physics, that disadvantage isn't directly proportional to fuel effeciency, it adversely impacts efficiency more under loads -- something a marine or small engine sees more of than a car, could be up to 10% loss, which hurts when you're burning 100l/hour.

Con: Boats may not be built to withstand fittings and hoses tolerate ethanol gas. Probably not a problem for boats made after 2000, but there are a lot of old boats still floating around.
 
Mad Mike said:
have never had trouble getting marine gas, quite frankly I've never seen ethanol at a marine pump!
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This was in the fall last year during our last big trip of the season before the boat came out of the water, right when things started to change and even shell and Canadian Tire were ditching their ethanol free, so some marinas that had recent fill ups might have been the first hit.

Don't be surprised if this summer is very different when it comes to fuel availability as it seems like the supply just isn't there, and if refineries simply aren't producing ethanol free gas in any grade anymore, well, marinas can't source it to sell it.
 
PrivatePilot said:
This was in the fall last year during our last big trip of the season before the boat came out of the water, right when things started to change and even shell and Canadian Tire were ditching their ethanol free, so some marinas that had recent fill ups might have been the first hit.

Don't be surprised if this summer is very different when it comes to fuel availability as it seems like the supply just isn't there, and if refineries simply aren't producing ethanol free gas in any grade anymore, well, marinas can't source it to sell it.
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Refineries only produce ethanol-free gasoline. To keep water concentration down, gasoline is neither piped or stored in a blended form at the fuel dump (the fuel warehouse). It splash mixed (temp-corrected volumetric measurement) just before being loaded into fuel trucks

If a Marina is pedaling pump gas, the marina owner most likely does it to increase his/her margins. Maybe they bought a deal, split a load with a buddy to save on transport charges knowing consumers might not don't know or care. It's very unlikely availability was an issue.
 
Mad Mike said:
Refineries only produce ethanol-free gasoline. To keep water concentration down, gasoline is neither piped or stored in a blended form at the fuel dump (the fuel warehouse). It splash mixed (temp-corrected volumetric measurement) just before being loaded into fuel trucks

If a Marina is pedaling pump gas, the marina owner most likely does it to increase his/her margins. Maybe they bought a deal, split a load with a buddy to save on transport charges knowing consumers might not don't know or care. It's very unlikely availability was an issue.
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I don't believe there is any legal obligation for any refinery to provide ethanol free gas, it was produced and distributed because there was a demand for it at the major retail level - Shell, Canadian Tire, and at various points, others.

All of those are gone now, so I have a hard time believing that they're going to send dedicated tankers from the tank farms to every little marina dotted across the province - those marinas were being filled up as the tankers completed their routes and supplied the eth free premium to other local stations as well.

In addition, as I understand it and have heard explained elsewhere (see citation below), the way the laws are written with regards to ethanol content, SUPPLIERS (so at the refinery/tank farm level) need to maintain a minimum 5% average ethanol content across all their fuel sold by volume, which is one of the reasons many are now adding it to premium whereas before they weren't - by selling X thousands of liters of fuel without ethanol before, they were forced to increase the volume of ethanol in their other fuels to maintain that average, and the standard 10% that most stations follow now was starting to become a problem and they were going to have to start selling 15% to maintain that average that they legally need to follow.

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
www.ontario.ca www.ontario.ca

The easier solution? Stop providing it and there's no worry about those averages anymore, they just put that minimum legally required 5% in all their fuels now across the board, and that's that - it makes their lives easier. Producers already hate ethanol as it is, I'm sure the less they have to fuss with it and the easier their lives can be with the whole situation, the better..

So the summer will tell the tale, but I'm struggling to believe, as mentioned above, that if there are literally no big retailers calling for no ethanol fuel anymore and having it trucked around the countryside by tanker getting delivered, that marinas are going to get special treatment.
 
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