Don't tell mom...

[Iceman]

Not entirely true. Since the charge was already dropped to 29 under, the crown could threaten to increase it back to the original amount in leu of offering a lesser sentence.

Yes that exactly what will happen if the defendant doesn't accept early resolution and forces a trial. The crown will in most circumstances offer a lesser charge if you please guilty. This is also dependant upon your past record as well.

Sent from my Le Pan TC802A using Tapatalk

 

[CruisnGrrl]

hybrid licences (gm2 or g2m) are different
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section2.10.2.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section4.8.1.shtml

a person who has a full A-G and an m1 or m2 has a hybrid licence and have different conditions. if they are operating a car they are not subject to the restrictions of the m1 or m2 while operating a car. otherwise in addition to the zero blood alcohol in the case of the m1 they wouldn't be able to have any passengers, drive on any highways with a speed limit greater than 80km/h (with some exceptions) or drive at night. the conditions of the M1 and M2 apply only to the operation of a motorcycle. of course if they are under 22 they are verboten from having alcohol in their system while operating an motor vehicle but that is regardless of whether they have full, hybrid or novice licence.

 

[PrivatePilot]

a person who has a full A-G and an m1 or m2 has a hybrid licence and have different conditions. if they are operating a car they are not subject to the restrictions of the m1 or m2 while operating a car. otherwise in addition to the zero blood alcohol in the case of the m1 they wouldn't be able to have any passengers, drive on any highways with a speed limit greater than 80km/h (with some exceptions) or drive at night. the conditions of the M1 and M2 apply only to the operation of a motorcycle.

This makes more sense to me. I have a class A licence and there's no way in hell they could try to say that after 20+ years of commercial driving experience, just because I went and got an M1, I suddenly couldn't drive my work truck on a highway or at night anymore...that's not only rather ridiculous, but would make me unemployable.

 

[raginduck]

Not "uninsurable" it would move her to the facility market though, which means still insurable just not affordable..

I chose to use facility insurance for years for my bikes... it was significantly cheaper than others.

 

[hedo2002]

hybrid licences (gm2 or g2m) are different
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section2.10.2.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section4.8.1.shtml

a person who has a full A-G and an m1 or m2 has a hybrid licence and have different conditions. if they are operating a car they are not subject to the restrictions of the m1 or m2 while operating a car. otherwise in addition to the zero blood alcohol in the case of the m1 they wouldn't be able to have any passengers, drive on any highways with a speed limit greater than 80km/h (with some exceptions) or drive at night. the conditions of the M1 and M2 apply only to the operation of a motorcycle. of course if they are under 22 they are verboten from having alcohol in their system while operating an motor vehicle but that is regardless of whether they have full, hybrid or novice licence.

The ONLY restriction that is imposed upon hybrid drivers, is the ZERO BAC. I never said anything abut carrying passengers or highway driving, or after dark driving, when in the full licence classed vehicle. Feel free to point out where in the handbook it says that a hybrid licence holder is NOT subject to the zero BAC. You won't find it because that condition DOES apply. I have charged a driver with it and the conviction was registered, as was the MTO licence suspension. So again if you have a G M1, you can NOT operate a G class vehicle with alcohol in your system until you pass the Zero BAC conditions on ALL classes of your licence. The "driver's handbook" is NOT a legal document but a generalized summary. The actual regulations are in the HTA, not the driver's handbook.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

Show me where it says hybrid not novice

 

[PrivatePilot]

Feel free to point out where in the handbook it says that a hybrid licence holder is NOT subject to the zero BAC.

To play devils advocate, Can you point out the portion of the HTA where this is clarified?

If it's not clear (perhaps it is, happy to read about it), in short, the police/courts decide to selectively enforce *some* portions of the M1/M2 restrictions upon people operating higher classes of vehicles, but not others?

 

[hedo2002]

Will look in the HTA when I get a chance. I am at work, right now. Not about "selective enforcement" of certain conditions, for the charge to be laid it must be spelled out in the HTA otherwise you have no section of the HTA to lay the charge under. I laid the charge just after we got the HTA amendments when graduated licencing was introduced.

To play devils advocate, Can you point out the portion of the HTA where this is clarified?

If it's not clear (perhaps it is, happy to read about it), in short, the police/courts decide to selectively enforce *some* portions of the M1/M2 restrictions upon people operating higher classes of vehicles, but not others?

 

[hedo2002]

Show me where it says hybrid not novice

I was using the term "hybrid" so as not to confuse people reading the thread go back and review your posts, (which I was replying to), you use the term Hybrid, so I too used it. Didn't say the HTA used that term. The handbook also uses the term "hybrid" which illustrates my point, that it is not a "legal" document but rather, (if you will), a "summary of guidelines" using layman's terms.

 

[hedo2002]

Section 44(1) of the HTA states:

[h=4]Condition on licence that blood alcohol concentration level be zero[/h] [h=4]Novice drivers[/h] 44.1 (1) It is a condition of the driver’s licence of every novice driver that his or her blood alcohol concentration level be zero while he or she is driving a motor vehicle on a highway. 2009, c. 5, s. 14.


You will note it states "motor vehicle" It does NOT state "for the class of licence that they are a novice driver." Hence the restriction applies to ANY motor vehicle that a novice driver operates on a highway. This is the only condition of a novice driver that extends to ANY motor vehicle, which is why you can still drive your truck at night and on highways.

This was also reaffirmed to my friend when she got her M1 the Service Ontario clerk told her about having a ZERO BAC, while driving any vehicle, until she attained the level of licence that no longer had a ZERO BAC condition. She was surprised, as are most. Now if someone had say a single drink with dinner and drove their cage home, with a GM1 licence it likely would never be an issue unless they caused the copper some real grief, or they had a collision.

To play devils advocate, Can you point out the portion of the HTA where this is clarified?

If it's not clear (perhaps it is, happy to read about it), in short, the police/courts decide to selectively enforce *some* portions of the M1/M2 restrictions upon people operating higher classes of vehicles, but not others?

 

[PrivatePilot]

That's very vague and in my opinion doesn't really clarify the situation with hybrid licenses.


I've been driving for 26 years, over 20 of which I have been a commercial class A license driver, I must admit that I find it hilarious that I am now, by the letter of the law as an AZM2 license holder, considered a novice driver again?

And with all due respect, I do not consider service Ontario employees to be an even remotely reliable source of factual information. I have been given bad advice and blatantly incorrect information there so many times over the years that I've lost track – let's not forget this is simply a contracted out service staffed by employees who are so very clearly only marginally educated on the services they are offering.

 

[hedo2002]

That's very vague and in my opinion doesn't really clarify the situation with hybrid licenses.


I've been driving for 26 years, over 20 of which I have been a commercial class A license driver, I must admit that I find it hilarious that I am now, by the letter of the law as an AZM2 license holder, considered a novice driver again?

And with all due respect, I do not consider service Ontario employees to be an even remotely reliable source of factual information. I have been given bad advice and blatantly incorrect information there so many times over the years that I've lost track – let's not forget this is simply a contracted out service staffed by employees who are so very clearly only marginally educated on the services they are offering.

You requested i post the HTA section which covers the scenario, I pointed out. I did so. Weather we like, or agree, with it or not is immaterial. For whatever reason the legislators and the MTO staff that drafted the legislation felt it important to impose this condition on a holder of a novice licence for ALL classes of vehicles they operate.

You are 100% correct ANY information given by a Service Ontario employee is at best suspect. They get no formal training, etc. Not sure why you find that so vague, it clearly states that as long as you hold a NOVICE class, G1, G2, M1, M2 licence you are subject to that condition. Doesn't impose the other restrictions of a NOVICE licence upon the driver that also holds another full class of a licence, while operating vehicles in the classes that they are fully licenced for.

You are not considered a NOVICE driver, you are still a fully qualified AZ driver for any class of vehicle that class of licence covers. However, because you hold an M2 you are a NOVICE driver for M class vehicles. however, you ARE subject to the ZERO BAC condition while operating any vehicle. One would certainly hope that a professional driver wouldn't be consuming alcohol while operating a vehicle to begin with.

As I said I laid a charge related to this scenario. (very long time ago) for a person, (who was close to .08, before there was a .05 option), who held an M2, licence and was driving a car. This was just after the HTA updates were issued, and when reading them one night noted this regulation. Had we not seen it, likely wouldn't have known it existed. So when, I stopped this driver we laid the charge and the court, the crown proceeded, the JP registered a conviction, the driver was suspended by MTO. But as I said likely not as prevalent today as many officers likely have never read the HTA, and as such aren't aware of the regulation. BUT, M1 and M2 licence holders need to be aware of it.

Just for clarification my friend has held her G licence for approx 42 years but is now subjected to it, seeing she holds an M1. 2 weeks ago she went out with friends and normally after a glass of wine would have driven home. Instead she had a friend's hubby drive her home. She made that decision on her own before we spoke based upon what she was told at Service Ontario, but which was in this case factual. But I bet if you asked 10 employees about it at least 3 - 5 would provide the wrong info...lol

 

[LoneRonin]

My friend who is taking her MSF course next weekend and has had her G for 40 years will the moment she writes and gets her M1, no longer be permitted to have even a single beer and drive her car. Because she will be holding an M1 is not permitted to operate ANY class of vehicle unless she has ZERO Blood Alcohol Concentration, (0% BAC).

and this is why the lawmakers are dumb****s and the people that enforce and actually believe them are even worse.

Stupid legislation like this completely goes against what it was originally meant for.

 

[PrivatePilot]

You requested i post the HTA section which covers the scenario, I pointed out. I did so. Weather we like, or agree, with it or not is immaterial. For whatever reason the legislators and the MTO staff that drafted the legislation felt it important to impose this condition on a holder of a novice licence for ALL classes of vehicles they operate.

Ok, following up on this.

First off, don't condone my questioning on the matter a suggestion or endorsement for getting sloshed and driving/riding. It's possible to discuss a technicality of the HTA without need for suggesting someone has contravened it. That said, I do occasionally go out with friends/family for dinner and have A (singular, as in ONE) beer and drive home in my car, something that I'm totally legal doing, and hence why I'm interested in this situation.

Secondly...

Here's section 29(1) of the HTA with reference to "Novice drivers".

29. (1) A driver of a motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle or a motor assisted bicycle, on a highway shall be classed as a novice driver in Class G1 or G2 unless he or she,
(a) is a fully licensed driver who has held at any time in the last three years a valid driver’s licence, other than a Class G1, G2, M, M1 or M2 driver’s licence, issued under the Act;

So, unless I'm mistaking something, that seems to make it quite clear that when you're driving your car with a full class licence you are NOT considered a novice driver so long as you've had your DL 3 years.

29. (2) states the following which seems to further back it up.

(2) A driver of a motorcycle on a highway shall be classed as a novice driver in Class M1 or M2 unless he or she, (a) has held at any time in the last three years a valid driver’s licence in Class M issued under the Act; or

So, riding your bike you ARE novice...but it specifically states "driver of a motorcycle", not "driver of any vehicle" etc.

So, it seems clear to me (unless you can somehow interpret it another way) that the lines are separated - you are not subjected to the limitations or restrictions under the M1/M2 novice driver laws when operating your car under a full (non-novice) G class licence.

 

[Baggsy]

I too was warned about zero blood alcohol when driving my car (licensed for 30 or 40 years then), but that was over a decade ago.
Surely, there have been cases since then to clarify the law.

Anyway, zero is stupid imho, since you could potentially take an over the counter medication with a small amount of alcohol in it, which puts you above zero.