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Do I really need an ABS ?
- Thread starter ajax.911
- Start date
Interesting advice. I suppose that would be a good way to improve skills by focusing on maintaining speed and smooth riding through the corners. And yeah, I suppose the track layout would be an important factor.
I'm genuinely curious why you would so rabidly despise something that only makes its presence known when a wheel has locked (is in the process of doing so.)
How are you riding that you find ABS so intrusive "you never buy a bike" with it?
His thinking may have been correct in the early days of abs. Things have changed.
Lots of valid arguments as well as the science that supports the use of ABS, however there is also the little piece about why some people ride a motorcycle in the first place. For me, I'd say that I'll never seek out an ABS bike for the simple reason that I do enjoy the visceral experience in operating the bike within my ability, and my level of risk is something I can decide for myself. I enjoy the relative simplicity in working on my bike, tinkering with it, and I actually like it's limitations as it offers it's own unique challenges for me to overcome as a rider. I still buy bikes that are carbureted lol. Obviously I appreciate modern amenities like better tires and electric start, but the raw and somewhat unforgiving nature of a motorcycle is pretty much the whole reason I ride. If I wanted safe and over-assisted tools surrounding me, I'd buy a nice new convertible car.
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Backing it in becomes almost impossible unless you dump a gear and let the transmission lock up the back wheel.
I want full control of my brakes at all times.
I have been caught off guard entering a corner when ABS kicked in and almost sent me out of the corner.
It was a close call, but I saved it.
If ABS had not kicked in, the corner would have been an every day corner. ABS almost made me crash.
No thanks, I have been in a few situations where ABS would have put my life in danger.
Stutter bumps coming up to a stop light.
If you get caught out by a quick changing red light and you decide to hit the brakes hare, you may end up going further into the intersection than you would have thought you were going to.
Happened with my wife on her bike.
Red light changed. She was a bit behind and I knew she would not want to rush a yellow.
I nailed the brakes and stopped before the solid white line.
She hit the brakes and ABS sent her into the intersection.
She could not stop.
The look on her face was horrifying.
Backing it in becomes almost impossible unless you dump a gear and let the transmission lock up the back wheel.
I want full control of my brakes at all times.
I have been caught off guard entering a corner when ABS kicked in and almost sent me out of the corner.
It was a close call, but I saved it.
If ABS had not kicked in, the corner would have been an every day corner. ABS almost made me crash.
No thanks, I have been in a few situations where ABS would have put my life in danger.
Stutter bumps coming up to a stop light.
If you get caught out by a quick changing red light and you decide to hit the brakes hare, you may end up going further into the intersection than you would have thought you were going to.
Happened with my wife on her bike.
Red light changed. She was a bit behind and I knew she would not want to rush a yellow.
I nailed the brakes and stopped before the solid white line.
She hit the brakes and ABS sent her into the intersection.
She could not stop.
The look on her face was horrifying.
Bad judgement != bad tech.
Again, this scenario doesn't make sense to me.
I would expect that in the same conditions without ABS, your wife's bike would have gone down and she would have slid through the intersection on her backside, or the stopping distance would have been essentially the same.
My guess is either she didn't recognize/react to the hazard quick enough, or she didn't continue squeezing the brakes after the weight shifted, but I wasn't there.
Did she stoppie?
I love these long, flogged to death threads, where everyone expresses an opinion based on their own experience, bias and beliefs, so here is mine........
I'm of a vintage where I can remember back 55 or so years, as a kid, listening to discussions among adults in regards to mandatory lap seatbelts being required in vehicle. Main arguments against seatbelts included that it was better to be "thrown clear" of an accident vs. being trapped in a car or........ that if you went over the railing on a bridge the seat belt would trap you and you would drown. Decades later, with declining deaths and injuries per million miles driven, does any reasonably intelligent person deny that seatbelts and airbags have worked well. But they are not perfect, some people experience abdominal injuries from seatbelts, some have been killed by airbags and I'm pretty sure a few have drowned after running into deep water, but overall, injuries and deaths are significantly lower that they would have been.
Like all relatively new technology ABS isn't perfect and it will continue to evolve and perform better. Many of those that learned to ride without it will continue to question its value and there is really very little you can do to change their minds. At some point in the future people will look back at the stated cons of ABS and conclude that these are the same type of illogical arguments heard about the use of seatbelts.
I'm of a vintage where I can remember back 55 or so years, as a kid, listening to discussions among adults in regards to mandatory lap seatbelts being required in vehicle. Main arguments against seatbelts included that it was better to be "thrown clear" of an accident vs. being trapped in a car or........ that if you went over the railing on a bridge the seat belt would trap you and you would drown. Decades later, with declining deaths and injuries per million miles driven, does any reasonably intelligent person deny that seatbelts and airbags have worked well. But they are not perfect, some people experience abdominal injuries from seatbelts, some have been killed by airbags and I'm pretty sure a few have drowned after running into deep water, but overall, injuries and deaths are significantly lower that they would have been.
Like all relatively new technology ABS isn't perfect and it will continue to evolve and perform better. Many of those that learned to ride without it will continue to question its value and there is really very little you can do to change their minds. At some point in the future people will look back at the stated cons of ABS and conclude that these are the same type of illogical arguments heard about the use of seatbelts.
Dirtbikes obviously have a significantly different use case, and hence requirements, than street bikes.
I have read other cases where stutter bumps in the emergency stop path can be an issue for an ABS equipped bike, when the stutters essentially coincide with the ABS on/off cycling. I believe the newer, higher-end, ABS systems do not suffer the same concern. Other than that, it's hard to envision a scenario where ABS would not be a benefit on the street. It either doesn't kick in under normal use, or it does kick in and save my bacon when I've messed up. I've never owned a bike with ABS, but it's certainly not something I would avoid on a street bike.
It's an interesting point and I've had two different experiences on two different bikes, both with ABS. Suzuki GSX-S750, guy pulled out from a long line of traffic to pull a U-turn in front of me - hard on the brakes but progressively so - at a point ABS kicked in, earlier than I would have expected and in my opinion, probably added a bit of distance. Ducati Scrambler Desert Sled, switching lanes, looked over my shoulder and switched lanes, traffic lights changed from green to yellow when I looked back, decided to get hard on the brakes in case of the car taking a left turn decided to go for it - I'd say I was harder on the brakes here than on the Suzuki but ABS did not kick in at all. Based on those two experiences, I have much more confidence in the ABS system on the Ducati than the Suzuki.
I wrote notes in this quote, please expand it
Full disclosure: I'm not a fan of ABS, or any other electronic/mechanical driver "improvement" devices.
I own a fleet of bikes, none of which have ABS.
My daily driver car predates ABS and airbags... and the seatbelts suck large ('84 "G" body).
I have disabled ABS on my truck (it is not as simple as removing a fuse. it is actually quite complicated to kill the ABS but retain the other functions that run off the wheel speed sensors).
I learned how to drive and ride way before ABS was even envisioned.
I have been racing cars and bikes since the '70s.
In my years of racing I found that the VAST majority of riders have no idea on how to use brakes. When I start a race I KNOW I can pass at least 33% of my competitors on the brakes. Cars or bikes.
That's sad. These are RACERS, not street riders.
... and here is my problem with ABS; You're NEVER going to learn how to threshold brake on a bike with ABS. To LEARN you need the wheel to lock up.
You will LEARN to count on the ABS to save your bacon.
You will LEARN to depend on the ABS.
I think the perfect situation would be everyone learns on non ABS, but we all ride ABS equipped bikes. It would be even better if they could equip bikes/cars with ABS, but not tell us. (Personally I do not want ABS on the rear wheel/wheels. Fronts OK, but there are LOTS of times I want to threshold brake the fronts while locking the rears, like anyone that rode a dirtbike. Locking and sliding the rear wheel keeps the rear wheel behind you, so you don't fishtail. Can't do that with ABS)(...and using that technique will significantly reduce your stopping distance, even over ABS, on slippery surfaces like loose snow,slush or sand or stutter bumps, but not ice).
We got mandatory ABS at the request of the insurance industry, resulting in fewer collisions/claims. We got fewer claims, but the dollar amount of those claims is higher that what it was "Pre" ABS.
Insurance statistics show we are learning to depend on ABS and traction control and stability control and it's not doing our driving any real favours.
ABS and traction control and stability control are great BUT are no substitute for knowing how to drive/ride.
...and get used to ABS on bikes. The EU mandates all bikes >125cc have ABS as of 2016.
...another thing I learned in my years of riding and racing: Brakes are highly over rated. My accelerator saves my bacon more times than my brakes.
Your notes in my response makes me laugh.
I ride like I don't have ABS. And when ABS takes control it screws up what I want to do with the bike. It was not rider error. None of my scenarios were rider error.
I and my wife know how to ride. ABS is not needed.
Rider error. LOK
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I'm in agreement with this, I have a similar background and have a small fleet of bikes, cars and trucks. I too have ABS off switches on my truck and bikes, it comes in handy on icy and loose dirt surfaces (ABS kill it's really easy to do). Track days are behind me, maybe I'm old school but the dumming down of cars and powersport controls kills some of the thrill that makes these toys exciting. Don't get me wrong about tech stuff, I love the stuff -- I just don't want a nanny to shift my gears, control my wheel spin, save me from a wheelie or superthink my braking intentions. I was really sad 10 years ago when I found out your could not buy a 1/2 ton pickup with a manual transmission.
I guess that's good for me -- used bikes without the nanny stuff are getting really cheap!
If proper judgement is exercised there's no reason to ever travel into an intersection, are you nuts? Blamed the ABS, LOL.
It's like the perfect "how not to" video to show at M1 EXIT courses. In fact they practice this very scenario in the test.
/facepalm emoji
Learned to ride without it and glad I did. If I ever do have ABS great but I would never want to learn only on a ABS bike.
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