Disobey Sign Ticket

[Tunda]

Offence:
Disobey Sign HTA 182(2)
$110
2 points

Actual Sign:
No right turn on red, 7am-9am, Mon-Fri

Me:
AMZ license, no points (ever), 1 ticket on license (10km/h over, approx. 2 years old)

Cop:
"Don't plead guilty, I always tell people to choose option 2, explain the situation to the prosecutor, since you have a pretty clean record they'll probably reduce it and drop the points, which I'll agree to, and if you don't like what they offer you, you can still take it to trial."

Questions:
1) What does she mean "which I'll agree to?" I've never fought a ticket before but it was my understanding that the crown doesn't need the officer to agree with the plea bargain? Prosecutor makes an offer, then if accepted it goes before the JP?

2) Is there any point to actually selection option 2 and meeting with a prosecutor? Unless I get offered some unicorn deal where this gets reduced to a non moving violation I don't see the point? Conviction is a conviction right? Can this be reduced to something that won't affect insurance?

3) The officer is a woman, she's young, she was just sworn in on May 2014 and this happened in Mississauga. What's the likelihood of a new Peel officer not showing up for trial? I think I read there is only a 4 month backlog.

4) When should I request disclosure? Do I wait until after the date has been set or should I do it when I go in to request trial? IF the officer had a dash cam that was recording, can I request the video?

5) On the day of trial, if I check in and enter a plea of not guilty, is the prosecutor obligated to tell me if their witness/the officer is going to appear or do I just have to hope I see the officer/wait until I'm actually in court to find out?

6) If I set a date for trial, then receive disclosure and decide I'd rather just take a plea bargain, have I lost my right to meet a prosecutor by not selection that option first?

 

[kiwi]

wow.. first post in 8yrs! Welcome! ;-)

 

[TO Bandit]

In my experieince, you will not get off Scott free. The benefit to meeting with the prosecutor is that you will save them time and resources by not going to trial. So they in return will reduce the fine to what you would may (or may not) get, if you go to trial and plead your case.
You'll never know if the officer will show up or not. It's a crap shoot.
Don't bother going to these paralegal ticket guys. They'll do the exact same thing and charge you for it, as it's a "win" if they get the charge or fine reduced.

 

[hedo2002]

Well the first thing is the "points will get dropped" this would ONLY be possible if the "new offered charge" is not one that is assigned points. The "points" are assigned by the MTO and if a conviction on a "points offence" is registered the court has NO control over the points being assigned. So if an offer is made by the crown ask what the charge is then specifically ask what points are assigned to that charge. As for as insurance is concerned a moving conviction is a moving conviction. Even "some" equipment violations can be used by insurers but that depends upon the insurer each is different rules.

Offence:
Disobey Sign HTA 182(2)
$110
2 points

Actual Sign:
No right turn on red, 7am-9am, Mon-Fri

Me:
AMZ license, no points (ever), 1 ticket on license (10km/h over, approx. 2 years old)

Cop:
"Don't plead guilty, I always tell people to choose option 2, explain the situation to the prosecutor, since you have a pretty clean record they'll probably reduce it and drop the points, which I'll agree to, and if you don't like what they offer you, you can still take it to trial."

Questions:
1) What does she mean "which I'll agree to?" I've never fought a ticket before but it was my understanding that the crown doesn't need the officer to agree with the plea bargain? Prosecutor makes an offer, then if accepted it goes before the JP?

2) Is there any point to actually selection option 2 and meeting with a prosecutor? Unless I get offered some unicorn deal where this gets reduced to a non moving violation I don't see the point? Conviction is a conviction right? Can this be reduced to something that won't affect insurance?

3) The officer is a woman, she's young, she was just sworn in on May 2014 and this happened in Mississauga. What's the likelihood of a new Peel officer not showing up for trial? I think I read there is only a 4 month backlog.

4) When should I request disclosure? Do I wait until after the date has been set or should I do it when I go in to request trial? IF the officer had a dash cam that was recording, can I request the video?

5) On the day of trial, if I check in and enter a plea of not guilty, is the prosecutor obligated to tell me if their witness/the officer is going to appear or do I just have to hope I see the officer/wait until I'm actually in court to find out?

6) If I set a date for trial, then receive disclosure and decide I'd rather just take a plea bargain, have I lost my right to meet a prosecutor by not selection that option first?

 

[Tunda]

Well the first thing is the "points will get dropped" this would ONLY be possible if the "new offered charge" is not one that is assigned points. The "points" are assigned by the MTO and if a conviction on a "points offence" is registered the court has NO control over the points being assigned. So if an offer is made by the crown ask what the charge is then specifically ask what points are assigned to that charge. As for as insurance is concerned a moving conviction is a moving conviction. Even "some" equipment violations can be used by insurers but that depends upon the insurer each is different rules.

Thanks hedo, so when the officer said they'll likely reduce it and drop the points, she was referring to the crown offering a lesser charge. So far, I found one case where a guy was offered "interfering with traffic" as his plea bargain to Disobey Sign. If I met with a prosecutor, is there any other offence you can think of that I should be trying for as my reduced charge?
And does anyone know if it's possible to have this reduced to a by-law infraction?

 

[Tunda]

Also, if I meet with a prosecutor to discuss a plea bargain but decide to proceed with a trial, can the crown use what I said in that meeting against me in trial? Or is it like an off the record type deal? If I meet a different prosecutor after that meeting, will they have notes from my initial meeting?

 

[coyo]

And does anyone know if it's possible to have this reduced to a by-law infraction?

I've seen this exact charge reduced to by-law. Aside from acquittal, that's you're best result as it doesn't show up on your driver's abstract.

 

[Tunda]

I've seen this exact charge reduced to by-law. Aside from acquittal, that's you're best result as it doesn't show up on your driver's abstract.

That's exactly what I want. What municipality was that in and how long ago? I need to make my best effort here to keep my AZ clean.

 

[coyo]

That's exactly what I want. What municipality was that in and how long ago? I need to make my best effort here to keep my AZ clean.

Hamilton is very much a "plea jurisdiction", tickets such as disobey sign, disobey stop sign, etc... are regularly plead down to by-law infractions.

 

[Tunda]

Hamilton is very much a "plea jurisdiction", tickets such as disobey sign, disobey stop sign, etc... are regularly plead down to by-law infractions.

hmm, mine was in Mississauga, hopefully I'll have the same luck.

 

[hedo2002]

I will defer to Coyo, on the reduced charge or even Bylaw, as he seems to know the Hamilton system. As for notes during a meeting with a crown. first attendance meetings, (when pleas are offered) are taped, So if needed the crown can remind themselves of what was offered. I have never heard of these being used against an accused. You will generally only meet with ONE prosecutor, the crown who takes the first meeting will also be the one handling any trial. Crown notes, (the ones I have seen) from first attendance are generally pretty sparse. IE offered xxxx charge, accepted, or pleading not guilty. That way should something happen and that crown isn't available, then a new crown would know what if anything you accepted.

Just to clarify you said earlier, you might consider going to trial to see if cop shows then if she is there you would just "accept the plea bargain offered". VERY rarely will a crown do that. The plea bargain is offered at first attendance. If you indicate that you want to go to trial, then that plea deal is withdrawn and all bets are off. The whole premise of the first attendance s to get the charges "cleared" and not have to have the officer attend court. If you say your going to trial then the crown will advise officer their attendance is required, which is why they withdraw the reduced charge offer.

As an example if it were a speeding ticket for say 40 km over, (but the officers notes indicate he "reduced it at roadside from 49 over), they may offer to reduce it to 29 over, (less money and one less point), if you don't accept that and say you want to go to trial the crown will advise they will be amending the charge to read the "actual" speed of 49 over. That is why sooooo many accept the plea, but from an insurer point of view the charge of 29 over counts the same as the 49 over with MTO 49 over is 3 points, 29 over is two points, (if memory serves me correct).

Also, if I meet with a prosecutor to discuss a plea bargain but decide to proceed with a trial, can the crown use what I said in that meeting against me in trial? Or is it like an off the record type deal? If I meet a different prosecutor after that meeting, will they have notes from my initial meeting?

 

[Tunda]

I will defer to Coyo, on the reduced charge or even Bylaw, as he seems to know the Hamilton system. As for notes during a meeting with a crown. first attendance meetings, (when pleas are offered) are taped, So if needed the crown can remind themselves of what was offered. I have never heard of these being used against an accused. You will generally only meet with ONE prosecutor, the crown who takes the first meeting will also be the one handling any trial. Crown notes, (the ones I have seen) from first attendance are generally pretty sparse. IE offered xxxx charge, accepted, or pleading not guilty. That way should something happen and that crown isn't available, then a new crown would know what if anything you accepted.

Just to clarify you said earlier, you might consider going to trial to see if cop shows then if she is there you would just "accept the plea bargain offered". VERY rarely will a crown do that. The plea bargain is offered at first attendance. If you indicate that you want to go to trial, then that plea deal is withdrawn and all bets are off. The whole premise of the first attendance s to get the charges "cleared" and not have to have the officer attend court. If you say your going to trial then the crown will advise officer their attendance is required, which is why they withdraw the reduced charge offer.

As an example if it were a speeding ticket for say 40 km over, (but the officers notes indicate he "reduced it at roadside from 49 over), they may offer to reduce it to 29 over, (less money and one less point), if you don't accept that and say you want to go to trial the crown will advise they will be amending the charge to read the "actual" speed of 49 over. That is why sooooo many accept the plea, but from an insurer point of view the charge of 29 over counts the same as the 49 over with MTO 49 over is 3 points, 29 over is two points, (if memory serves me correct).

So am I better off booking a trial, then getting disclosure, then having first attendance...so that I have the benefit of seeing what's in disclosure?
Or should I just choose option 2 and book a meeting with a prosecutor with an option for trial in reserve? Is it possible to request disclosure without having a trial date set, so that I can view it before meeting the prosecutor?

 

[hedo2002]

You can request disclosure at any point, in the process, however generally the first appearance date, will be long before any disclosure arrives. The crown will at times hand you the disclosure during the first appearance. Not sure what the process is specifically for Hamilton. Some jursidictions set the first attendance meeting within a few weeks of your sending the request.

If Hamilton sets the first appearance relatively quickly, when you attend you can meet crown, tell them you have requested disclosure, if they have it there, ask what they are offering, then tell them you want a few minutes to read the disclosure and consider the offer can they call you back up after they see a few others.

Look at the disclosure, consider what they are offering and then base your decision on that. I can't advise you how to proceed. It wouldn't hurt IMHO to express to the crown your concern about the AZ licence issues. Most crowns will understand and offer something that keeps a clean record for you. But again they aren't obligated to do so.

So am I better off booking a trial, then getting disclosure, then having first attendance...so that I have the benefit of seeing what's in disclosure?
Or should I just choose option 2 and book a meeting with a prosecutor with an option for trial in reserve? Is it possible to request disclosure without having a trial date set, so that I can view it before meeting the prosecutor?

 

[muay_thai_dan]

Fight it. I use a paralegal who gets my tickets dropped to nothing as if they never happened whenever i get a ticket. If you want his contact PM me, he charges about 300$. But people are successfull going on their own too.

 

[Tunda]

You can request disclosure at any point, in the process, however generally the first appearance date, will be long before any disclosure arrives. The crown will at times hand you the disclosure during the first appearance. Not sure what the process is specifically for Hamilton. Some jursidictions set the first attendance meeting within a few weeks of your sending the request.

If Hamilton sets the first appearance relatively quickly, when you attend you can meet crown, tell them you have requested disclosure, if they have it there, ask what they are offering, then tell them you want a few minutes to read the disclosure and consider the offer can they call you back up after they see a few others.

Look at the disclosure, consider what they are offering and then base your decision on that. I can't advise you how to proceed. It wouldn't hurt IMHO to express to the crown your concern about the AZ licence issues. Most crowns will understand and offer something that keeps a clean record for you. But again they aren't obligated to do so.

This is actually happening in Mississauga, coyo had mentioned Hamilton because I asked him what municipality he had seen Disobey Sign reduced to by-law infractions.
Thanks for all the help hedo! this is my first time going through this whole process.
And yet another question: to selection option 2 it says to mail the ticket to the court house, but I'm nearing the 15 day limit and don't want to take a risk with the post, can I just go in to the court house to request the meeting?

 

[hedo2002]

Normally they wont't set up a meeting via walk in, (but not sure about Mississauga). Even though they give you "15 days" if they gte it a couple of days later they still process it like it was within the 15 days, (they understand Canada post could have caused a delay). But get it sent off ASAP.

This is actually happening in Mississauga, coyo had mentioned Hamilton because I asked him what municipality he had seen Disobey Sign reduced to by-law infractions.
Thanks for all the help hedo! this is my first time going through this whole process.
And yet another question: to selection option 2 it says to mail the ticket to the court house, but I'm nearing the 15 day limit and don't want to take a risk with the post, can I just go in to the court house to request the meeting?

 

[Tunda]

Normally they wont't set up a meeting via walk in, (but not sure about Mississauga). Even though they give you "15 days" if they gte it a couple of days later they still process it like it was within the 15 days, (they understand Canada post could have caused a delay). But get it sent off ASAP.

I called the Mississauga office and they said I could submit it in person, so I'm going to run it in today, just so I have the peace of mind of knowing it's there on time.

 

[EC2010]

You have to be selective with Paralegal services. The one that's been repeatedly reviewed and recommended by members was RedLine (they've changed names since I think). Henry was my guy, and it's not a win unless the charge(s) is dropped.

 

[micelli.i]

I've seen this exact charge reduced to by-law. Aside from acquittal, that's you're best result as it doesn't show up on your driver's abstract.

Can you explain what you mean by "reduced to by-law"? As in, will it still show on your driver's license record? Thanks!

 

[hedo2002]

Can you explain what you mean by "reduced to by-law"? As in, will it still show on your driver's license record? Thanks!

Having an HTA charge reduced to a Bylaw infraction means just that, it is no longer a moving violation but rather a simple bylaw infraction. bylaw infractions do NOT reflect on your drivers abstract.