In addition to this photographs from various locations, especially the area where the officer was and with date and time stamp, can be of help.
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definition of running red light?
- Thread starter ironryder
- Start date
In addition to this photographs from various locations, especially the area where the officer was and with date and time stamp, can be of help.
ironryder
Well-known member
yep 144(18) it is. the front bumper of my truck was already at the stop line as the light turn amber and i accelerated thought the intersection,best to my knowledge holding a class AMZ license, you stop on an amber if it is safe to do so.In my case, i would have to jam on the breaks which would not be safe,but it was safe to proceed across instead.
The only statement i made was that "the light was amber" as he asked " you know why i'm stopping you for right?"
So as back to my op, where do my vehicle has to be as the light turn red? pass stop line? cross walk? i doubt clearing the intersection as we all in the red as we make left turns daily.( but than again, our law is F up )
if all i need is to pass the stop line, it would pretty much need a "photo finish" view to determine if i have cross the line before red.PO was at the nose of his car parked 3 cars deep on the opposite side of the intersection (20+ feet?),at that position it is impossible to make that judgement.
The only statement i made was that "the light was amber" as he asked " you know why i'm stopping you for right?"
So as back to my op, where do my vehicle has to be as the light turn red? pass stop line? cross walk? i doubt clearing the intersection as we all in the red as we make left turns daily.( but than again, our law is F up )
if all i need is to pass the stop line, it would pretty much need a "photo finish" view to determine if i have cross the line before red.PO was at the nose of his car parked 3 cars deep on the opposite side of the intersection (20+ feet?),at that position it is impossible to make that judgement.
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40 km/h is 11.1 metres per second (a normal traffic lane is about 3.6 metres wide). Sure your front bumper was "already at the stop line" when the light turned yellow? What was the duration of the yellow light? It should be at least 3 seconds.
At 40 km/h you will completely clear a 4 lane intersection including the length of a normal vehicle (~ 5 metres) in about 2 seconds ...
At 40 km/h you will completely clear a 4 lane intersection including the length of a normal vehicle (~ 5 metres) in about 2 seconds ...
FLSTC
Well-known member
Yup, the story doesn't compute.
This part should probably be removed from the internet, it doesn't help you at all. Accelerating towards amber never wins you friends with law enforcement.
Story is starting to get unconsistent......
What difference would it make if any part of your truck passes the stop line as in your last sentence vs you stating in the first sentence you halfway through the intersection.....
How blind do you think the cop is if he is facing you 20' away and wouldnt be able to tell if you passed the stop line......
If he was facing you, make sure if you fight this you tell the truth and be consistent to what happened as if you make up a story and he flashes a dashcam video of you lying under oath you could be in for more trouble than you began with.....
ironryder
Well-known member
if thats the calculation, i might have going even slower, it all happened in seconds.What i'm sure of is that the front of my truck was already at or close to stop line,alot less than 11.1 meters thats for sure.Amber is at least 3 second, than i'm definitely in the intersection when it turn red...so back to op....anyone even know what the answer is? or yall just posting playing prosecutor?
Well your not going to get a 100% "guarantee" answer. As with most HTA sections the wording is vague, which leads to "interpretation". As I said when I was a copper we used "our judgement", (which I maintain back then was a LOT less strict then it seems to be today)...lol But the officer made the "call" on the road. Unless it was VERY obvious, (you wrote a ticket for failing to stop at a red light where the intersection in question had a stop sign), the crown generally accepted the evidence and let the JP figure it out.
Your stating that the officer couldn't have possibly determined if your truck was in the intersection, from his vantage point. But I would suggest, if your being observant enough, (which you should be looking around) to have noted the cruiser while in the intersection then you couldn't have also been focusing on the color of the light. The officer on the other hand while looking at your truck would have also likely have been in a position to observe the light in the background.
I believe you SHOULD take the ticket to court as is your right to do so. You may get fortunate and the officer doesn't show up etc. unlike a speeding violation the crown can't say well if you go to trial we will revert to the "actual" speed and your getting increased penalty. This ticket the penalty is the same weather you plead or are convicted.
You can "try" the argument you felt it would have been unsafe for you to apply the brakes in a "panic" stop, but most JP's will say then you should have been anticipating the light change. By your own admission the amber light at the intersection is 3 seconds that means you "should" have had time to stop, (unless your driving a fully loaded rig). Using Brian's distances if you truly believe your trucks "nose" was over the stop line while the light was still amber you should have had at least 10 metres to stop, (if you were going 40 km. As someone has already stated the JP has heard every possible "explanation" a few thousand times. Everyone who appears before them believes that their reason is justified, (human nature, is our default setting is that we are in the right).
Your stating that the officer couldn't have possibly determined if your truck was in the intersection, from his vantage point. But I would suggest, if your being observant enough, (which you should be looking around) to have noted the cruiser while in the intersection then you couldn't have also been focusing on the color of the light. The officer on the other hand while looking at your truck would have also likely have been in a position to observe the light in the background.
I believe you SHOULD take the ticket to court as is your right to do so. You may get fortunate and the officer doesn't show up etc. unlike a speeding violation the crown can't say well if you go to trial we will revert to the "actual" speed and your getting increased penalty. This ticket the penalty is the same weather you plead or are convicted.
You can "try" the argument you felt it would have been unsafe for you to apply the brakes in a "panic" stop, but most JP's will say then you should have been anticipating the light change. By your own admission the amber light at the intersection is 3 seconds that means you "should" have had time to stop, (unless your driving a fully loaded rig). Using Brian's distances if you truly believe your trucks "nose" was over the stop line while the light was still amber you should have had at least 10 metres to stop, (if you were going 40 km. As someone has already stated the JP has heard every possible "explanation" a few thousand times. Everyone who appears before them believes that their reason is justified, (human nature, is our default setting is that we are in the right).
With the JP having heard every possible "explanation" a few thousand times it sure sounds like the deck is stacked against you no matter what the facts are. I'd suggest wearing respectable type clothes. Does that still work or are the JPs on to that ploy as well?
FLSTC
Well-known member
It's clear to me. You must not cross the stop line if the traffic light is red. If you crossed the line when the light is amber, then you did not violate 144.18 There is no offence in the HTA for being in an intersection (past the stop line) when the light turns from green to amber or from amber to red, albeit there is a Toronto by-law offence for certain intersections for such.
If you honestly went through the intersection legally per the HTA, then I'm of the opinion that your ticket was for being an ***, i.e. doing something risky from the P.O.'s perspective to make him issue the closest legal violation (and maybe will perjure himself if a trial arises in the future). Happens everyday.
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Little off topic but this is directed at the Police Officers and former Police Officers on the forum, but why don't POs in such situations use the Amber Light charge (144.15). Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular amber indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle if he or she can do so safely, otherwise he or she may proceed with caution. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (15).
Can the person that started the thread not somehow show that when they entered the intersection the traffic light was amber not red. If this is proven will the case be dismissed or can the Prosecutor then amend the charge from 144.18 to 144.15 which is the same number of Demerit Points.
Can the person that started the thread not somehow show that when they entered the intersection the traffic light was amber not red. If this is proven will the case be dismissed or can the Prosecutor then amend the charge from 144.18 to 144.15 which is the same number of Demerit Points.
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Have you actually gone back and timed the amber? Some of them are too short for the intersection, and the city should be notified to fix it, before a serious accident occurs.
Had you picked a point of no return before the intersection? Were you past that point when the light turned amber? Was it safe to accelerate to clear the intersection faster as the light changed?
Had you picked a point of no return before the intersection? Were you past that point when the light turned amber? Was it safe to accelerate to clear the intersection faster as the light changed?
Showing proper respect for the process is expected, not a 'ploy.' If you show up looking like a slug then you start in a hole that you have to talk your way out of.
imho, it's a ploy if it's not your real look but something you put on to pretend to respect the process because you know the court will stoop to that level. Justice should be blind.
Call it a ploy if you like. I call it being aware enough of the process that you take it, and its trappings, seriously. Walking into court dressed like a slob shows either a profound lack of respect, or at the very least a profound lack of comprehension of the situation's gravity.
dasiffy
Well-known member
or you could just be poor. (i am not disagreeing that looking like slop will hurt your chances)
to the OP
1- if the light was amber *when you entered* the intersection, you're still guilty of an offense.
Slamming on the brakes is not considered an "unsafe" excuse. ie: why were you driving so fast to begin with? why didn't you slow down when the light turned amber from green?
An example of the "unsafe to do so" clause would be a telephone pole was falling.
The only real world excuse for the "unsafe to do so" clause would be if you were being tailgated.
2-the difference from failing to stop red light vs amber is pretty minor. The ticket is a little less
and you get fewer points (meaningless) but they are both considered "minor offenses" in the eyes of
the insurance companies. Your rates will go up the same regardless of what colour it was.
if Your guilty of driving through the intersection while the light wasn't green,
There's no real difference. pay the fine and save the hassle. Or if your hell bent on going to court, talk to the prosecutor and try and get a amber light. That's the best you could get.
Everything changes if the light's change at different times. (if the westbound lanes get a red before the eastbound lanes). If this is the case you could argue that the cop couldn't have seen the colour of the light that was facing you because he was facing in the wrong direction.
The cop needs a clear line of site to the line marking on the ground, the colour of the light, and the front of your truck.
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I didn't read through some of the comments on the 2nd page, so I may be posting a little duplicate info.
I had an exact same situation as you, except for I know I was going a bit fast (13km over speed limit irrc) and I tried to stop (tapped on the break) but realized it might not be safe, so I coasted through the intersection. light never turned red from where I could see through the windshield.
Now in my defense I said to the cop I saw an amber light, tried to stop and I didnt think it was safe to slam the breaks so I coasted through. He made a comment "Your wheels were still spinning, so you didnt try to stop". I figured there was no point arguing, so I took the ticket, called a paralegal and the ticket was thrown out.
I did research and asked a few officers about this law, technically your vehicle should be completely clear of the intersection, meaning no parts of it are out of the stop line when the light turns red from amber, other wise you were either going too fast, or noticed the light turn amber too late. All lights in ontario should give you enough time to either stop or completely clear the intersection if you were travelling at speed limit. so if you were going at 40-45, you would have had enough time to clear the intersection with no problem if it turned as you entered the intersection.
I had an exact same situation as you, except for I know I was going a bit fast (13km over speed limit irrc) and I tried to stop (tapped on the break) but realized it might not be safe, so I coasted through the intersection. light never turned red from where I could see through the windshield.
Now in my defense I said to the cop I saw an amber light, tried to stop and I didnt think it was safe to slam the breaks so I coasted through. He made a comment "Your wheels were still spinning, so you didnt try to stop". I figured there was no point arguing, so I took the ticket, called a paralegal and the ticket was thrown out.
I did research and asked a few officers about this law, technically your vehicle should be completely clear of the intersection, meaning no parts of it are out of the stop line when the light turns red from amber, other wise you were either going too fast, or noticed the light turn amber too late. All lights in ontario should give you enough time to either stop or completely clear the intersection if you were travelling at speed limit. so if you were going at 40-45, you would have had enough time to clear the intersection with no problem if it turned as you entered the intersection.
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