Dealer Demo Ride: "If you break it, you buy it!" | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Dealer Demo Ride: "If you break it, you buy it!"

Does this engine make my bike feel fat?

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Yes. Yes, it does. More on that later...

Took a 2024 Africa Twin out today. Spent a bit of time in the dealer parking lot trying to configure the Ride Mode settings. Compared to the spartan Tenere controls, the left handlebar cluster on the AT is a confusing, hot mess:

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OMGWTFBRBHawkTuahBBQ

I had rented an Africa Twin Adventure Sports in Spain a couple of years ago but only rode it on pavement. Back then, I had accepted the defaults for Sport mode, so there was no need for further customization. But for this ride, I had very specific requirements for off-road and the "Gravel" mode did not have what I was looking for. After 10 minutes of diving in and out of menus, I had to admit defeat and I slunk into the dealership to find someone to help me customize a ride mode.

A sales guy comes out and says, "Oh it's easy, you just hit this button and... um... hmm... maybe it's that button. Nope. Hmmm... Wait here a second, I'm gonna go inside and get the user manual..."


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Actual excerpt from the Africa Twin user manual

After a couple of minutes, he comes back out and says, "Okay, it's a bit confusing. You gotta touch the clock display on the top screen to get into the customize menu"

Whut? Can you hide that a little bit more, Mr. Honda? I don't think anyone would ever have intuited where that menu was, and for such a very basic function too!

Dumb.

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You have to press this to get to the customize settings menu... Yep, so very intuitive, right?

Okay, so this is how I set it up: full Power, minimal Engine Braking, minimal Traction Control (can't turn it completely off), and no ABS. Had to confirm the No ABS on the nanny screen and if you turn the bike off then on again, it switches the ABS back on.

When I first rode the AT a couple of years ago, was very impressed with the touch screen. It's the only motorcycle I've ever ridden with a factory touch screen that's not a separate GPS/Nav display. The touch capability does deactivate when the bike is moving and is only restored when completely stopped. Not a big deal.

What *IS* a big deal is that you cannot update the parameters unless you are fully stopped. Some (most?) ADV bikes, you can turn TC, ABS off/on and change throttle response while actively riding. The BMW also lets you change suspension settings while riding too!

Not so with the Africa Twin.

Dumb.

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Rode out of the parking lot and immediately I noticed how heavy the bike feels. Yes, it's 510 lbs wet and it carries it all up top, so you do notice it when you take it off the sidestand. But this porkiness persists even when it's on the move, and this is due to the power characteristics of the parallel twin engine.

Most newer motorcycles today are designed with P-twin engines. Vs and I4s are slowly being phased out as motorcycles powerplants because of the ever-tightening Euro and California emission restrictions. Stuffing a parallel twin in a bike is the easiest way to pass these new rules. But most of them suffer from relatively poor low end torque, and the Africa Twin falls victim to this as well.

This becomes more apparent once you ride a whole bunch of motorcycles back-to-back, as I'm doing. Most of the mid-weight ADVs I've taken out are ~450-490 lbs, while pushing all this mass with ~100 hp. That's an acceptable power-to-weight ratio. The one exception is the heavyweight R1300GS coming in at 525 lbs, but offsetting the weight with a more powerful 145hp engine, which still maintains a more-than-adequate power-to-weight ratio.

The glaring issue here is that the Africa Twin is closer to a heavyweight on the scales, but is still trying to squeeze by with its very midweight 100 hp. With very poor low-end power. This makes the bike feel quite sluggish until you rev the engine up past 4K rpms till all the way up to its 8K redline.

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Gorgeous though! Also, the bike is pretty good looking too...

As I took the bike up and down the gears, I realized yet another Achilles Heel. In stock form, the gearing is super-tall. Fine for high-speed pavement runs, but for off-road, you gotta redline the engine to get it to fall into an acceptable place in the powerband in the next gear up. Again, victim of the parallel twin's anemic low-end grunt. This makes either the lower gear very twitchy or the higher gear very sluggish. I never take these demo bikes on tighter, technical terrain, but hunting for the right gear got annoying on some of the wider switchbacks on mild grades. For off-road use, I'd definitely switch out the sprockets to achieve closer gear ratios.

I get the sense that this bike doesn't know what it wants to be. Or it's trying to be all things at once and failing at each thing individually. Even the wheel choice is indicative of this indecisiveness: heavy bike, highway gearing, but 21" front? Who are we trying to kid? It should have a 19" front. A lot of owners do make the switch opting for an aftermarket smaller front wheel and for 2024, the larger gas-tank equipped Adventure Sports model of the Africa Twin does come with a 19" front from the factory. That makes more sense.

Another surprise when banging down gears - no quickshifter! It's an option, but not part of the base config.

Not a problem, I get to go back to blipping the throttle on downshifts, which I find super-fun to do manually instead of letting the computer do it. But another side-effect of no engine slip (slipper clutch) regulation is that it makes breaking traction to the rear a lot easier with the clutch on downshifts. Especially when you crank up the Engine Braking in the Ride Mode. Great for backing it into corners. Yay!

Other nice things I can say about the Africa Twin, the position of the pegs and bar while standing on the pegs is perfect for me, and the tall seat height gives lots of leg room when seated. Very comfortable bike.

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A good day was had... just not for the Honda cleaning staff...

The Africa Twin is an okay bike, let down by a weak engine, user interface fails and too-tall gearing for off-road. You can change the sprockets to fix the latter problem if you want to play in the dirt, more seat time will get you familiar with the controls, menu system and the stop/start Ride Mode quirks, but Honda desperately needs to put a proper heavyweight powerplant into its heavy weight motorcycle.

Heading back tomorrow to dirty up more bikes!!! 😈 😈 😈
I've had zero complaints about the twin engine in AS ES form (with the DCT). I may or may not have led a group of Superbike on a 407 run once or twice. Certainly not gonna knock your socks off coming from a dig, but the overall experience was satisfying (imo)

Full disclosure; my twin never saw so much as a puddle (off road). However, I thought it was an excellent street based ADV.
 
I've had zero complaints about the twin engine in AS ES form (with the DCT). I may or may not have led a group of Superbike on a 407 run once or twice. Certainly not gonna knock your socks off coming from a dig, but the overall experience was satisfying (imo)

Full disclosure; my twin never saw so much as a puddle (off road). However, I thought it was an excellent street based ADV.

I'm just evaluating all these on gravel roads. I've ridden most of them on the street, like the DDX and AT. Not a lot of complaints about the ATAS on road when I rode it in Spain last winter. But off-road is a much different kind of environment.
 
I'm just evaluating all these on gravel roads. I've ridden most of them on the street, like the DDX and AT. Not a lot of complaints about the ATAS on road when I rode it in Spain last winter. But off-road is a much different kind of environment.
I can believe it. And you had the 'base/off-road' model.

Concur the handlebar controls are a mess. There is thankfully a 'favourite' settings button that I used to change TC on the fly. But overall changing stuff was rather annoying...
 
My main problem with digital dashboards has nothing to do with technology, and everything to do with how so many of them make completely insane UX choices.

On the other hand, you could look at it as a simple test from Honda. You don't get to adjust these settings, unless you've read the manual...
 
I know you’ve tried out the older Gen 1290 Super Adventure R but have you tried the 22+ version of it? Not saying it’s the best thing on two wheels but it’s worth a test ride (plus it comes with TKC80’s stock).

So funny you mention this. I just came back from the KTM dealership where I bought my 500 EXC-F. They still remember me (or pretended to). Actually, the parts guys know me very well because I break my bike so often.

Anyway, was asking if they had a current model 1290 SAR for test ride, unfortunately they are all sold out. Sales guy says nothing will be in till MY2025, and those may be trickling in Sept/Oct timeframe. My buddy with a '23 1290 SAR is visiting us next week, so if I'm nice and maybe also slip some roofies in his drinks, I can take his bike out for a spin.

The KTM shop I go to is also a multi-line dealer and while I was there, they invited me to try a P-Strom. Not the DE version though. Still, might be worth it to see what the new motor is all about. Might go down next week with my 1290 SAR buddy and go for a Suzi test ride.
 
My main problem with digital dashboards has nothing to do with technology, and everything to do with how so many of them make completely insane UX choices.

On the other hand, you could look at it as a simple test from Honda. You don't get to adjust these settings, unless you've read the manual...

It all comes down to UX testing - of which it's obvious Honda didn't do any.

Best dash & controller setup IMO is the BMW TFT and Wonderwheel combination. Very intuitive and it's obviously gone through extensive end-user testing.
 
1) An accident in a parking lot still follows standard fault-determination rules of any other accident in Ontario.
2) Technically, if there's a claim on a vehicle it should be included in that vehicle's history.
3) Yes, they could I guess. But dealerships have their own special type of commercial insurance, similar to garages. It really depends on the rules of demo rides, and the dealer's insurance. I'm not an expert on commercial insurance.
A garage policy would cover a dealership. Their owned autos would more than likely be covered on a “blanket” basis as is provided by that policy type. So an accident on an unregistered/unplated vehicle would likely go unnoticed. For demo rides, you would sign a waiver, likely accepting responsibility for any accident (at-fault or not at fault). Read the fine print!
 
A garage policy would cover a dealership. Their owned autos would more than likely be covered on a “blanket” basis as is provided by that policy type. So an accident on an unregistered/unplated vehicle would likely go unnoticed. For demo rides, you would sign a waiver, likely accepting responsibility for any accident (at-fault or not at fault). Read the fine print!
I bought a Ducati 1198 that had been looped on a demo ride. The dealer had no legal way to force the rider to pay for the damage. So they sold the bike cheap with no record of the accident. Waivers etc aren't usually worth the paper they are written on how do you make the person pay when they say no.

Sent from the future
 
As it has to be. Would you assume financial responsibility for a $20k+ bike? That would drive away 90% of the participants. You'd be left with a couple good riders and a pile of morons.
Obviously it would need to be worthwhile for a dealer to go that route, but the same would apply for a car rental. You may also have coverage on your policy that would extend it to legal liability for damage to non-owned autos.
 
As it has to be. Would you assume financial responsibility for a $20k+ bike? That would drive away 90% of the participants. You'd be left with a couple good riders and a pile of morons.
Letting someone thrash a bike with no consequences would lead to more morons I’m guessing 😂
 
Here’s an example of a test ride waiver from Barnes/Blackfoot. Language is probably very similar for others: https://blackfootonline.com/images/miniweb/misc/demowaiver.pdf
Their final statement may limit your liability to $1500. They don't say contribute to, they say cover.

"A $1500 credit card pre-authorization deposit will be required prior to the ride. The purpose of this deposit is to cover any incurring damages or traffic violation costs during the demo ride"
 
There are two different kinds of demo rides. The most popular program is the traveling demo truck which is organized by the manufacturer and is a national program, moving from city to city, dealer to dealer.

Like these:
For most of these demo days, the only liability you waive away is personal injury. All other damage to the bike or property is covered by the manufacturer. These test rides are supervised and are performed on a set route at set times, led either by a representative from the manufacturer or a member of the local sales team.

There might be some kind of franchise fee that the dealerships pay into which helps subsidize a small portion of this national, manufacturer-organized program.

The other kind of demo ride is one where the costs are borne entirely by the dealership. This is where they pull a vehicle out of their own inventory, ear mark it as a demo and let prospective customers ride them. They eventually put the demo unit on sale at a reduced price, typically at the end of the season. Depending on the dealer, this test ride is unsupervised and the terms and conditions of the ride are a bit more strict. The cost of running a demo program comes out of their marketing budget and depreciation and minor damage are most likely written off as a business expense.

I'm very familiar with this program, as our school receives demo bikes from a couple of dealerships where we get new current model year bikes at the start of every season, then we return them at the end of the year, in as good a condition as we can restore them to and the dealership will resell them as demo units. We do buy parts at cost, for both the demo units and for the other bikes that we own in our fleet.

No formal agreement exists because 1. small town business and 2. if we ever returned a demo bike with extensive damage without repair, there'd be no more bikes the next season.

As a data point for not having a relationship: I went into the Triumph dealership last week looking to demo a Tiger 900 Rally Pro. I've never bought anything from them before so they don't know me from Adam. As part of their waiver, they ask for credit card number to cover damages.

Much as I have a good relationship with some of the dealers around here, I doubt they'd ever tell me truth as to whether they are actually able to charge a credit card for damages, or whether taking a CC number is more of a psychological deterrent to stop morons from "moron-ing" on their bikes.

I don't recall anyone ever being charged for damages on a demo bike organized by the dealer and not a manufacturer?
 
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The few demo bikes i've been on have not required a CC deposit or a waiver.
Same here, only rather than a few I've done a bunch and never needed a CC
 

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