|
|
|
Darksider - conviction registered
- Thread starter Bike Cop
- Start date
Sativa Quemador
Well-known member
aha ! i knew some sidecars had car tires.. !
Still a retarded "legal " ticket.
Still a retarded "legal " ticket.
(h) regulating combinations of tires installed on vehicles or any class or classes thereof;
If any ticket was thrown, it was likely due to section (h). Motorcycles are a different class of vehicle from Automobiles, and the tires used on each are different in physical specifications, construction, and engineering - designed for different forces on the road, experienced by the different classes of vehicle.
The difficulty lays in the ignorant cop, on the hunt, spotting a juicy ticket-magnet. If, for example, i just got pulled over for doing 25 over, the cop looks at my unconventional sidecar rig, and works out in his mind that a sidecar rig is nothing more than a motorcycle class vehicle with something stuck to the side of it (legally, that is what a sidecar is generally considered/defined as according to the HTA and DOT regs.. little more than an over-sized saddlebag with it's own wheel!).. "and oh, wait, car tires on a motorcycle? Remember Bike Cop said he got some Darkside cruiser-loser convicted on his tires? $1000.00 per... and look at this guy, he's got 3! CHA-CHING for the Judge, Brownie points for me! .oh, what, your arguing with me? .. *toss*.. tell it to the judge."
If any ticket was thrown, it was likely due to section (h). Motorcycles are a different class of vehicle from Automobiles, and the tires used on each are different in physical specifications, construction, and engineering - designed for different forces on the road, experienced by the different classes of vehicle.
The difficulty lays in the ignorant cop, on the hunt, spotting a juicy ticket-magnet. If, for example, i just got pulled over for doing 25 over, the cop looks at my unconventional sidecar rig, and works out in his mind that a sidecar rig is nothing more than a motorcycle class vehicle with something stuck to the side of it (legally, that is what a sidecar is generally considered/defined as according to the HTA and DOT regs.. little more than an over-sized saddlebag with it's own wheel!).. "and oh, wait, car tires on a motorcycle? Remember Bike Cop said he got some Darkside cruiser-loser convicted on his tires? $1000.00 per... and look at this guy, he's got 3! CHA-CHING for the Judge, Brownie points for me! .oh, what, your arguing with me? .. *toss*.. tell it to the judge."
Bike Cop
Well-known member
The bike that I stopped was a Vulcan 900, no sidecar, MC tire on front, car tire on the rear. I can see how you would have an argument for car tires if you were driving a three wheeled MC (piaggio mp3's need not apply), or if you had machined or otherwise modified your rims to accept the different car bead. You will however, have an uphill battle all the way with the officer and the court as they will be unfamiliar with your unique setup.
I did consider it to be a safety issue in this case and charged the driver. It was an enforcement initiative focused on bike equipment, that was the reason for the inspection.
And last time I checked no one was keeping track of Brownie points. Tell that to some of my co-workers who are content to show up for work and log hours in the local Tim's parking lot.
I did consider it to be a safety issue in this case and charged the driver. It was an enforcement initiative focused on bike equipment, that was the reason for the inspection.
And last time I checked no one was keeping track of Brownie points. Tell that to some of my co-workers who are content to show up for work and log hours in the local Tim's parking lot.
Therein lies the rub, due to an ignorant cop's problem, it becomes my problem consuming Time, Money, and Anxiety that i otherwise would be in short supply of.
Although in principle i do support your dark-sider conviction, due to the safety and engineering aspects that i did consider for myself in detail, when combining automotive tires to unmodified motorcycle rims, particularly with a solo-tracked vehicle - an ignorant cop at the road-side just isn't going to "get it", in a 5 minute sidecar rider educational attempt in explaining the engineering and physics angles of doing it right. I would be lucky to get 1 minute in.
You are correct, there are indeed just as many lazy cops, as there are over-zealous but ignorant cops.. you'll find that in any profession. The difference is, other professions don't have near as big a negative impact upon others, as your profession does. Therein lies the innate distrust. To be fair, i've also met a few cops that have let me off nearly scott-free for comparative vehicular mayhem.. I've found that it's the attitude and circumstance that counts - on both sides of the potential performance-award. Sorry if you take offense to that.
I am being somewhat dramatic here, to make a point. Also, somewhat loaded to get your interpretation and response
- there was a case in the U.S. about 10 years ago .. my exact same scenario came up, related to DOT regulation mis-interpretation done road-side. The person ticketed was given multiple vehicle-class citations related to his custom sidecar outfit. It took several years, AMA involvement, and an industry recognized "sidecar expert" to get the court to rule in the Defendant's favor. Is that likely to happen here, with me, due to a broadened interpretation of Sect70(h)? .. I don't know - not likely i would hazard a guess, but I certainly don't have those resources at my disposal in order to conduct any "Uphill Battle" in any legal court on this side of the border, for what is essentially a poor decision being made road-side. So far, any cop contact with the rig has been one of bewilderment, mirth, and amusement.. no tickets awarded... so the issue is pretty much all theoretical to me at present, but concerning.
Last edited:
Bike Cop
Well-known member
I don't take offense to your statement. I am all for two way conversation on these issues, and that's the reason I post on the forum. If I wanted to be berated or told how to do my job, I would just as easily take that at the side of the road in metered doses - one stop at a time.
I spoke with the MC enforcement guru in southern Ontario about this issue yesterday and in his mind this issue is open and shut. I'm thinking that maybe there is some room for consideration and am interested to hear your thoughts. Maybe I can work to add this topic to the enforcement training sessions.
I spoke with the MC enforcement guru in southern Ontario about this issue yesterday and in his mind this issue is open and shut. I'm thinking that maybe there is some room for consideration and am interested to hear your thoughts. Maybe I can work to add this topic to the enforcement training sessions.
I've already given you a fair amount of information to work with and interpret, in terms of that enforcement training educational.
In a sense i've also hi-jacked your threads purpose - for that i apologize for also. I personally don't agree that car tires on a solo motorcycle are a safe alternative - rather much like buying an expensive Ferrari, insuring it rather expensively against all attendant risks of owning a Ferrari, and then shoe-horning 5 year old Walmart Clearance rubber on it, just because it consumes tires every 15k.. a rather false sense of budgeting.
My case, self-admittedly, is extreme. It is hard to mistake my rig as anything else but singularly engineered for rigid, full-time sidecar use - with the basic handling characteristics of a slot-car that is unachievable by a car or motorcycle, due to those tires. The other side of it, what is done, cannot be undone...but it was done, safely and over-engineered. For that reason, beyond the argument value of it, i don't think i have too much to worry about personally. It would take a real dick cop with a chip on his shoulder to make it an issue, in my obvious to the eye, over-engineered case.
The problem is, while relatively few and far between - there are other sidecar equipped motorcycles out there, that have made the jump to sidecar rig dark-sider. In many cases the engineering changes are much more subtle, or significantly different and non-obvious, that it takes a cop asking the right questions and making the correct observations, in order to assess whether the rig has been done right for use of automotive tires.
Motorcycle tire life on a sidecar rig, even on a well setup (geometry wise) rig tends to be expensively short. With automotive tires, spectacularly longer. That too is a false economy - but the sidecar rig doing this right, is generally doing this with safety and handling first and foremost in mind.. not the $$ in savings potentially realized once his capital outlay in new rims/brakes etc is paid for in about 300k km or so (yeah, right..).
Keep in mind - some motorcycle rigs ARE equipped with square tread, motorcycle spec tires. Ural, Dniepers, old school Jawa/CZ rigs .. all came with sidecar pattern square lugged tires, stock. They almost look like an aggressive treaded car tire, but skinnier. I'm sure you've seen those before.
Key indicators would be a rim obviously wider than normal motorcycle rims - automotive tires shoe-horned onto motorcycle rims generally have a subtle 'pinched' look at the bead seat/tire sidewall interface due to the differences in rim size and bead profiles.
Keeping in mind, that modern tire sizes start at 135 series (Old school VW Beetle, Renaults) .. and many sidecar rigs can utilize these style rims in a budget but effectively engineered setup, and it's just not as obvious as it could be, to the untrained eye. Looking for engineering changes (adapting hubs to conventional front forks, for example) would be positive confirmation that things have been done right. You can also buy Automotive pattern rims that lace direct up to a motorcycle hub, for the old-school look but high-tech handling automotive tire sidecar rig setup.. but those aren't too common, perhaps a handful in the USA the last time i looked?
To account for the additional weight and centripetal loading of the tire and any aftermarket front end setup to accommodate for steering changes and overall geometry - changes are also often made in braking setup (ie SS lines, up-sized rotor(s) and caliper(s) setup) also. If the cop is observing the rider - obviously any very erratic wobbling / veering behavior is questionable - if using an automotive tire setup, it may or may not be legit - but it might be something else entirely that is worthy of an MOT inspection by a sidecar qualified specialist/motorcycle mechanic (rarer then hen's teeth in Ontario!). If wobbling/veering erratically, is it the tires? is it the suspension? is it the potentially piss-poor sidecar/motorcycle geometry driveway-amateur setup at play, or is it just a hellish cross-wind? Listen to the rider's story/explanation for the ******** factor - if you have someone on shift, that is more knowledgeable .. you could always ask for an advisement over air or come as back-up to assess - rather than shooting the hapless but legit dark-sider on the spot (legally speaking).
Looking for a larger than spec bead-seal gap between rim and tire is a pretty obvious no-brainer, to indicate an unsafe situation .. the measurement chart as above, is an excellent indicator for that.
There are rigid sidecar rigs, and there are leaning sidecar rigs, which are very uncommon. Leaners would have an automotive tire on the chair, while it retains stock wheels and suspension - it tries to adapt to the best of single-track, and dual-track motorcycle setups.
Honestly .. i think the bigger danger as far as un-modified/solo-track darkside setups go - as far as potential vs actual incidence rates - and where they happen, is in the initial setup and sealing of the mismatching tire bead to rim seat. The very real potential safety liability of doing that, just scared the hell out of me enough to go for the much more expensive, but safer alternative from the get-go. Any shop that volunteers to mount them for a customer, should have a friendly visit from the WSIB about a hazard assessment, IMHO.
I've been out of that mod game for nearly 10 years now, since my project completion - but i was following the darkside controversy back then - i really don't know of any current updates, or any increase of use/incident rate data in the past 10 years or so.
In a sense i've also hi-jacked your threads purpose - for that i apologize for also. I personally don't agree that car tires on a solo motorcycle are a safe alternative - rather much like buying an expensive Ferrari, insuring it rather expensively against all attendant risks of owning a Ferrari, and then shoe-horning 5 year old Walmart Clearance rubber on it, just because it consumes tires every 15k.. a rather false sense of budgeting.
My case, self-admittedly, is extreme. It is hard to mistake my rig as anything else but singularly engineered for rigid, full-time sidecar use - with the basic handling characteristics of a slot-car that is unachievable by a car or motorcycle, due to those tires. The other side of it, what is done, cannot be undone...but it was done, safely and over-engineered. For that reason, beyond the argument value of it, i don't think i have too much to worry about personally. It would take a real dick cop with a chip on his shoulder to make it an issue, in my obvious to the eye, over-engineered case.
The problem is, while relatively few and far between - there are other sidecar equipped motorcycles out there, that have made the jump to sidecar rig dark-sider. In many cases the engineering changes are much more subtle, or significantly different and non-obvious, that it takes a cop asking the right questions and making the correct observations, in order to assess whether the rig has been done right for use of automotive tires.
Motorcycle tire life on a sidecar rig, even on a well setup (geometry wise) rig tends to be expensively short. With automotive tires, spectacularly longer. That too is a false economy - but the sidecar rig doing this right, is generally doing this with safety and handling first and foremost in mind.. not the $$ in savings potentially realized once his capital outlay in new rims/brakes etc is paid for in about 300k km or so (yeah, right..).
Keep in mind - some motorcycle rigs ARE equipped with square tread, motorcycle spec tires. Ural, Dniepers, old school Jawa/CZ rigs .. all came with sidecar pattern square lugged tires, stock. They almost look like an aggressive treaded car tire, but skinnier. I'm sure you've seen those before.
Key indicators would be a rim obviously wider than normal motorcycle rims - automotive tires shoe-horned onto motorcycle rims generally have a subtle 'pinched' look at the bead seat/tire sidewall interface due to the differences in rim size and bead profiles.
Keeping in mind, that modern tire sizes start at 135 series (Old school VW Beetle, Renaults) .. and many sidecar rigs can utilize these style rims in a budget but effectively engineered setup, and it's just not as obvious as it could be, to the untrained eye. Looking for engineering changes (adapting hubs to conventional front forks, for example) would be positive confirmation that things have been done right. You can also buy Automotive pattern rims that lace direct up to a motorcycle hub, for the old-school look but high-tech handling automotive tire sidecar rig setup.. but those aren't too common, perhaps a handful in the USA the last time i looked?
To account for the additional weight and centripetal loading of the tire and any aftermarket front end setup to accommodate for steering changes and overall geometry - changes are also often made in braking setup (ie SS lines, up-sized rotor(s) and caliper(s) setup) also. If the cop is observing the rider - obviously any very erratic wobbling / veering behavior is questionable - if using an automotive tire setup, it may or may not be legit - but it might be something else entirely that is worthy of an MOT inspection by a sidecar qualified specialist/motorcycle mechanic (rarer then hen's teeth in Ontario!). If wobbling/veering erratically, is it the tires? is it the suspension? is it the potentially piss-poor sidecar/motorcycle geometry driveway-amateur setup at play, or is it just a hellish cross-wind? Listen to the rider's story/explanation for the ******** factor - if you have someone on shift, that is more knowledgeable .. you could always ask for an advisement over air or come as back-up to assess - rather than shooting the hapless but legit dark-sider on the spot (legally speaking).
Looking for a larger than spec bead-seal gap between rim and tire is a pretty obvious no-brainer, to indicate an unsafe situation .. the measurement chart as above, is an excellent indicator for that.
There are rigid sidecar rigs, and there are leaning sidecar rigs, which are very uncommon. Leaners would have an automotive tire on the chair, while it retains stock wheels and suspension - it tries to adapt to the best of single-track, and dual-track motorcycle setups.
Honestly .. i think the bigger danger as far as un-modified/solo-track darkside setups go - as far as potential vs actual incidence rates - and where they happen, is in the initial setup and sealing of the mismatching tire bead to rim seat. The very real potential safety liability of doing that, just scared the hell out of me enough to go for the much more expensive, but safer alternative from the get-go. Any shop that volunteers to mount them for a customer, should have a friendly visit from the WSIB about a hazard assessment, IMHO.
I've been out of that mod game for nearly 10 years now, since my project completion - but i was following the darkside controversy back then - i really don't know of any current updates, or any increase of use/incident rate data in the past 10 years or so.
Last edited:
Short-form problems, as boiled down to the basics.
As Sect 70(h) does indicate, there are indeed different classifications of vehicles. The law not only differentiates between them, but so too do the laws of physics in terms of the stresses upon the carcass of the tire sidewall.
A motorcycle tire sidewall is rigidly constructed and reinforced to resist the tendency to literally roll off the rim of a tire, as cornering forces the tire both down, and sideways. The difference in measurements between the automotive and motorcycle rim/tires merely accentuates this.
Even though both motorcycle and automotive tires share the same rim size 'labelling' ie. 15" .. beyond the measurement differential, there are significant bead-seat profile differences engineered into each designed-purpose rim - and this is on purpose, to make them fundamentally incompatible - in theory anyway. Some people gotta learn from practice, and a certain percentage of darksiders .. do, or did.
When a tire properly matched to a correct rim is supposed to seat on it's bead at around 40 psi given no defects in either tire or rim, taking it to 100+ psi to seat a mismatching bead as in the case of an unmodified darkside rim/tire assembly, is certainly an indicator that you are playing with risk.
There is plenty on the controversial topic already, findable by google, to be rehashing it again in detail here.
As Sect 70(h) does indicate, there are indeed different classifications of vehicles. The law not only differentiates between them, but so too do the laws of physics in terms of the stresses upon the carcass of the tire sidewall.
A motorcycle tire sidewall is rigidly constructed and reinforced to resist the tendency to literally roll off the rim of a tire, as cornering forces the tire both down, and sideways. The difference in measurements between the automotive and motorcycle rim/tires merely accentuates this.
Even though both motorcycle and automotive tires share the same rim size 'labelling' ie. 15" .. beyond the measurement differential, there are significant bead-seat profile differences engineered into each designed-purpose rim - and this is on purpose, to make them fundamentally incompatible - in theory anyway. Some people gotta learn from practice, and a certain percentage of darksiders .. do, or did.
When a tire properly matched to a correct rim is supposed to seat on it's bead at around 40 psi given no defects in either tire or rim, taking it to 100+ psi to seat a mismatching bead as in the case of an unmodified darkside rim/tire assembly, is certainly an indicator that you are playing with risk.
There is plenty on the controversial topic already, findable by google, to be rehashing it again in detail here.
Dresden
Well-known member
If you want some credibility, post your name and badge number. Or give it to a Moderator to confirm your legitimacy.
Until then, I call forum troll. Maybe one of 2WET's mushroom fantasy accounts.
I sure am not seeing it in the legislation that I can find. All I've found so far is very poorly written and vague (in other words, typical government regulation).
Here are some vehicle classifications to present to your "enforcement guru". I will start with the two obvious ones.
1. Car. The tread and wheel axes remains very close to being flat/parallel to the ground (+/- wheel alignment and slight outward body roll when cornering). Correct tires: Car tires. Or light truck or whatever the case may be. This is an easy one.
2. Two-wheeled motorcycle or bicycle. The vehicle tilts inward substantially when cornering with the wheels tilting along with it. Straight-ahead driving is done on the center of a rounded-profile tread and cornering is done more towards the edges of that tread. Correct tires: Motorcycle. Obvious one. Car tires are not engineered for this type of loading.
But then ...
3. Bandit Bill's sidecar or equivalent. Built on a motorcycle chassis. Legally registered as a motorcycle. Does not lean (give or take minor wheel alignment and outward "body roll") in corners. Even though it's legally a motorcycle, conventional motorcycle tires are NOT appropriate. Because of the way the tire loadings are applied, I would think that car wheels and tires are appropriate (given the special considerations that Bandit Bill knows far more about than I do). Perhaps there are special-purpose tires for this application but I don't see why they would be needed, what's the difference?
4. Can-Am Spyder. 3 wheels, two in front one rear, doesn't lean (give or take alignment and minor body roll). Works out to be the same situation as 3 above. The tire loadings in this case are even more similar to what a car would see. It has a rather normal car-type upper-and-lower-wishbone front suspension and steering rack. It just has one rear wheel instead of two.
5. Piaggio MP3. 3 wheels, two in front one rear, leans in corners like a motorcycle. Appropriate tires: Motorcycle.
6. Sidecar built to lean in corners - rare, but they do exist. Appropriate tires: Motorcycle.
Then the real complication ...
7. A motorcycle with a detachable conventional sidecar. When the sidecar is not attached, it leans in to corner and needs motorcycle tires. When the sidecar is attached, it doesn't lean and needs car tires. I'm pretty sure the design intent with these was only to detach or re-attach the sidecar, not swap out the wheels and tires!
In my view the distinction shouldn't be whether the vehicle is a "car" or a "motorcycle" - but rather whether the vehicle leans inwards for cornering or not.
To ALL who are questioning Bike Cop's legitimacy, knock it off, and that's an order.
FYI the IP addresses don't match any other user.
Edit: If you are going to take Bike Cop up on the offer to review video evidence etc then BY ALL MEANS communicate directly with him by private message as appropriate, but it is every bit as unreasonable for Bike Cop to post his personal information on this forum in public as it is for YOU to post your personal information on this forum in public.
Last edited:
Bike Cop
Well-known member
Thanks for posting all of that, I can see there is a lot of thought that has gone into your application and modifications. And I would tend to agree that on the face of it, the question really comes down to: leaning or not leaning? That's a simple enough message that even a traffic cop would understand
I am certified as a CVSA and DG inspector but in my travels I've never met a sidecar inspector from the MTO... They must exist somewhere.
As for the name and badge, I will respectfully decline to post it in an online forum, but I can always be reached through a PM if necessary. I assure you I am legit. I have been in contact with the forum admin and have given my work location and how to reach me.
I am certified as a CVSA and DG inspector but in my travels I've never met a sidecar inspector from the MTO... They must exist somewhere.
As for the name and badge, I will respectfully decline to post it in an online forum, but I can always be reached through a PM if necessary. I assure you I am legit. I have been in contact with the forum admin and have given my work location and how to reach me.
Thanks for posting all of that, I can see there is a lot of thought that has gone into your application and modifications. And I would tend to agree that on the face of it, the question really comes down to: leaning or not leaning? That's a simple enough message that even a traffic cop would understand
I am certified as a CVSA and DG inspector but in my travels I've never met a sidecar inspector from the MTO... They must exist somewhere.
As for the name and badge, I will respectfully decline to post it in an online forum, but I can always be reached through a PM if necessary. I assure you I am legit. I have been in contact with the forum admin and have given my work location and how to reach me.
I don't believe that there is anyone inside of or directly employed by the MTO, that could be considered an expert/inspector in sidecar setups. It's a fringe vehicle, that is declining in numbers by the decade. You might find one or two in the UK MTO equivalent, still.. but they are going to be ancient and farting dust - once common-place in the UK, sidecars are also increasingly rare on their roads also as compared to previous numbers. The UK does have sidecar certification standards related to fabrication and engineering inspection, that allows a minimum standard of vehicle fitness to be evaluated and certified. Not so in Ontario, and for the rest of Canada, as far as i know.
There are a few 'experts' within the motorcycle industry, that do specialize in professional level sidecar setups - perhaps two in Ontario, another on the West Coast that i am familiar with.
Most sidecar setups are done by the trial and error method of 'attract a few buddies to help out with a case of beer, and hope for the best'. A ride or two on a badly setup sidecar rig, tends to scare a lot of them away after that. The survivors/the stubborn will either throw the sidecar back on kijiji, or find someone else knowledgeable enough in the Dark Arts and Sciences of sidecar setup, in order to correct their tipsy-buddy's misguided mis-alignment and setup attempts.
Sidecar rigs, and the theory of sidecar rig setup is one of the last niche Bastions of fringe DIY vehicle design, experimentation and enthusiast manufacture .. and i expect that is because there are so few of them overall, for the busy-body bureaucrats to be bothered with at the MTO, historically and currently. The automotive equivalence of the DIY spirit was legislated out of existence, eons ago. Too many duff kit-bash homebuilt cars were built, and too many incidents.. and they legally went buh-bye as a result.
My own example may be legally registered as a Suzuki Bandit.. about 1/4 of it truly is, anyway... the rest of it came from/through machine shops, certified welders, sourced specialty parts, engineering research and advice, and lots of hard graft at the work bench over a long period of time. I would just hate to see it all undone unjustly, at the road-side, at the hands of a ticket writing bureaucrat just because it's a motorcycle using a car tire. Your 'MC enforcement guru' would be the one that i would fear the most, having a 'black or white' mind-set, at the road-side.
To lean, or not to lean .. that is a risky question. A sidecar rig, using automotive tires, will still 'lean' like a mofo, if something isn't done pre-emptively to stiffen up the suspension of both sidecar and the motorcycle - it's the nature of the beast when the stock suspension is being over-stressed by the CofG wandering all over the damn wheelbase triangle with acceleration/deceleration/cornering/contents loading - an uninformed cop might interpret that as leaning, when told to be on the lookout for evil dark-siders on leaning motorcycles... My rig has exactly 4" ground clearance at it's lowest point - at the swaybar connecting the sidecar wheel to the rear wheel in order to keep it's beefed up suspension flat in corners. It certainly doesn't lean, or bottom out.
Last edited:
Where I do not question wether your legitimat or not it does concern me that your not willing (if you haven't done so) to provide your badge number within PM. I'm also not interested in it myself. Seeing as you've been in contact with with mods and personally not knowing who the mods even are, again i Couldn't care less.
I've had my fare share of run ins with the police and always knew the "sketchy" one's when the badge wasn't visible.
That being said. Why does everyone care? If you have nothing to hide or arent doing anything to get yourself pulled over you should have no worries.
SHOULD is the main key. Some cops do have it out for certain groupes of people but I haven't seen this from bike cop. Other then the young kids on sport bikes comment. But I tend to agree from personal experience. It still doesn't seem like hes unjust or unfair.
As for being out for certain people I can name 1 sergeant in particular in peel that is the worst in my line of work. I choose not to do so on a public forum due to possible repercussion but if and when people meet me in person id be welcome to explain.
Bike cop. I may have spotted you today on veterans in barrie. Id actually be interested in meeting you either on a professional level or for a coffee to ask you a couple questions about how to stay within the confines of the law. Ive noticed an exaggerated interest in myself and my bike over the last few days from YRP and OPP. (IE being followed for 30km by york and watched for 20 min by Opp (
I've had my fare share of run ins with the police and always knew the "sketchy" one's when the badge wasn't visible.
That being said. Why does everyone care? If you have nothing to hide or arent doing anything to get yourself pulled over you should have no worries.
SHOULD is the main key. Some cops do have it out for certain groupes of people but I haven't seen this from bike cop. Other then the young kids on sport bikes comment. But I tend to agree from personal experience. It still doesn't seem like hes unjust or unfair.
As for being out for certain people I can name 1 sergeant in particular in peel that is the worst in my line of work. I choose not to do so on a public forum due to possible repercussion but if and when people meet me in person id be welcome to explain.
Bike cop. I may have spotted you today on veterans in barrie. Id actually be interested in meeting you either on a professional level or for a coffee to ask you a couple questions about how to stay within the confines of the law. Ive noticed an exaggerated interest in myself and my bike over the last few days from YRP and OPP. (IE being followed for 30km by york and watched for 20 min by Opp (
Tripletrouble
Well-known member
I find it interesting That my Motorcycle, as delivered from the factory is illegal according to section 4 sub section B regarding aspect ratios.
Bill has some VERY good valid points, he has obviously done some serious leg work on this issue.
However, let's remember a few things.
1. Bike Cop, (or for that matter ANY cop), didn't WRITE the legislation. They merely enforce the laws as written, (agreeably by people who have no real level of expertise).
2. The legislation as are all laws, written to cover the vast majority of cases. Certainly there are going to be exceptions, (in this regulations case perhaps bikes with sidecars). But as Bill conceded that is a VERY VERY small ratio of bikes on the road. Now can a Darkside "conversion" be done safely with modifications to the rims?? Possibly, BUT as with any modification it must be done in a manner which renders the vehicle safe, and most likely there are VERY few people who could do this. There IS a reason most "reputable" shops won't even consider installing a car tire on a bike rim, (they don't have the expertise to do so safely, and aren't willing to take on the added liability for doing so). Obviously, at some point someone somewhere looked at the issue of using car tires on a single track bike and concluded it wasn't safe to do so. Is it safe?? I don't know I, (like many of those who slammed bike cop, saying he saved children from this terribly unsafe bike driven by a convict), Have NO clue if it is indeed safe. If you THINK it is safe then go out today get a car tire and throw it on YOUR bike to prove it.
3. The cop isn't "ignorant" if he writes a ticket for this he/she is doing their job. If the rider has completed the conversion safely and can PROVE it to the courts satisfaction and in turn to the MTO then and only then will the issue be resolved. I know the issues of dealing with the MTO and that it is VERY VERY difficult to get things changed and approved. The ATV community has for years been trying to get 2 up ATV's approved for road use. Main problem is the MTO wants the safety data from the manufacturers. The manufacturers won't "certify" the vehicles as "safe" for on road use as this opens them to liability when some yahoo crashes it and kills themselves and their passenger. Now is a cop "ignorant" for issuing a ticket for using this vehicle on a road? Not IMHO as they are simply applying the law as it exists today. Some officers, (off duty), have and use their personal 2 ups on roads but they also know the risks of doing so. The officer may not agree 100% with the law, but when directed by superiors to apply the regs they must do so or face repercussions.
4. Bike cop said this ticket was issued during a "directed enforcement" initiative on bike equipment. Back in my days these were called the "STEP" Selective Traffic Enforcement Program. We were directed to look for certain offences. IE speeding in school zones, seat belt etc.
5. One would think if it was safe to do so then bikes would come from the factory with an "option" of having a car tire on them, (I am sure the bike manufacturers have looked at this issue and all possible safety issues
Lastly, it is a free country if you want to go to the dark side, I could care less, (your bike, your safety, etc. It isn't going to impact me and my ride). But with the choices we make in life we have to accept the potential consequences, (in this case a possible ticket). But if your convinced that it is safe and choose to ride this way then take pride in your conviction to the issue and be prepared to accept the consequences.
To me this type of posting by Bike Cop is beneficial, just as with the helmet cam issue, MOST riders never knew it was illegal to ride with one until it was posted on the forums, now a LOT more people are educated. Some have chose to mount the camera on the bike others continue to ride with it, (but at least they now know they could get ticketed and made the INFORMED decision).
However, let's remember a few things.
1. Bike Cop, (or for that matter ANY cop), didn't WRITE the legislation. They merely enforce the laws as written, (agreeably by people who have no real level of expertise).
2. The legislation as are all laws, written to cover the vast majority of cases. Certainly there are going to be exceptions, (in this regulations case perhaps bikes with sidecars). But as Bill conceded that is a VERY VERY small ratio of bikes on the road. Now can a Darkside "conversion" be done safely with modifications to the rims?? Possibly, BUT as with any modification it must be done in a manner which renders the vehicle safe, and most likely there are VERY few people who could do this. There IS a reason most "reputable" shops won't even consider installing a car tire on a bike rim, (they don't have the expertise to do so safely, and aren't willing to take on the added liability for doing so). Obviously, at some point someone somewhere looked at the issue of using car tires on a single track bike and concluded it wasn't safe to do so. Is it safe?? I don't know I, (like many of those who slammed bike cop, saying he saved children from this terribly unsafe bike driven by a convict), Have NO clue if it is indeed safe. If you THINK it is safe then go out today get a car tire and throw it on YOUR bike to prove it.
3. The cop isn't "ignorant" if he writes a ticket for this he/she is doing their job. If the rider has completed the conversion safely and can PROVE it to the courts satisfaction and in turn to the MTO then and only then will the issue be resolved. I know the issues of dealing with the MTO and that it is VERY VERY difficult to get things changed and approved. The ATV community has for years been trying to get 2 up ATV's approved for road use. Main problem is the MTO wants the safety data from the manufacturers. The manufacturers won't "certify" the vehicles as "safe" for on road use as this opens them to liability when some yahoo crashes it and kills themselves and their passenger. Now is a cop "ignorant" for issuing a ticket for using this vehicle on a road? Not IMHO as they are simply applying the law as it exists today. Some officers, (off duty), have and use their personal 2 ups on roads but they also know the risks of doing so. The officer may not agree 100% with the law, but when directed by superiors to apply the regs they must do so or face repercussions.
4. Bike cop said this ticket was issued during a "directed enforcement" initiative on bike equipment. Back in my days these were called the "STEP" Selective Traffic Enforcement Program. We were directed to look for certain offences. IE speeding in school zones, seat belt etc.
5. One would think if it was safe to do so then bikes would come from the factory with an "option" of having a car tire on them, (I am sure the bike manufacturers have looked at this issue and all possible safety issues
Lastly, it is a free country if you want to go to the dark side, I could care less, (your bike, your safety, etc. It isn't going to impact me and my ride). But with the choices we make in life we have to accept the potential consequences, (in this case a possible ticket). But if your convinced that it is safe and choose to ride this way then take pride in your conviction to the issue and be prepared to accept the consequences.
To me this type of posting by Bike Cop is beneficial, just as with the helmet cam issue, MOST riders never knew it was illegal to ride with one until it was posted on the forums, now a LOT more people are educated. Some have chose to mount the camera on the bike others continue to ride with it, (but at least they now know they could get ticketed and made the INFORMED decision).
|
|
|
|
|