Damn you, Direct Energy!

i was looking at the waterless systems but the water in my area is very mineral so it would eat the insides and the waterless are a lot more finicky about the type of water going through than tanks. Besides, i got my tank for a steal. $450 for a brand new tank WITH a 1000W portable generator. both brand new. so the tank came out to be less than 300....

I was talking to some guys in the industry about installing an upgraded thermostat on the tank that can lower the temperature during the day but everyone said not to bother. That the new tanks are so efficient that it will fire only once, maaaybe twice during the entire day.

And now the biggest kicker. 1500 square feet house, the water tank, furnace and dryer are gas. furnace was off up until a few weeks ago. Two ppl houselhold. shower gets used daily x2 plus the drier is run multiple times on the weekend. My monthly bill comes out to be 45 dollars WITH the 15 dollar rental. So 30 dollar in gas...so now you're thinking...hey 30 to 40% better efficiency means about $10 savings right? wrong! Once i broke the bill down, i only actually used $3.41 in gas. the rest were delivery charge, this surcharge that surcharge, and the biggest part of the bill?!? $19 customer fee...

So here i am, thinking about spending thousands of dollars on a more energy efficient system of heating my water when in 30 days of use i actually spend only 3.41 cents in gas usage....WHATS THE POINT?! 30% better efficiency would net me a dollar and change savings!?!?! sure the delivery charge and all that other jazz is based on usage. but even all that stuff added up still came up to less than $20.

If you really wanna save on gas bills, you have to look at your furnace, your ducting, and be willing to lower the thermostat a degree or two. THATS where the huge savings are.

I'm actually looking forward to the next bill to see what the difference in gas usage is going to be with the furnace now running.

Yup, tankless is great for reducing gas consumption, but to reduce cost you need to deliver your own gas. Propane or NG tanks I guess, if it's even possible. Can someone crunch the costs/frequency of replenishment for this kind of self-serve gas tank heating system?
 
Yup, tankless is great for reducing gas consumption, but to reduce cost you need to deliver your own gas. Propane or NG tanks I guess, if it's even possible. Can someone crunch the costs/frequency of replenishment for this kind of self-serve gas tank heating system?

I used a tankless heater while living in Indonesia, and I only had to refill the 20kg propane tank once a month or bi-monthly or so -- but the hot water was only used for showering and it wasn't necessary to heat the water as much as here (i.e., the water from source was warmer)... so I suspect you'd use way too much gas here to do the delivery yourself.
 
Anybody know if we have to clean the tanks of our water heater? I think mine's might be older than some ppl on this forum :rolleyes:
Call the company you rent from and complain you can't get 1 shower in without it getting cold now, they will come out, check the dip tube, and either cut it or change it, then a couple weeks complain again, keep doing this and they will change the tank for you.
 
I think you meant to say a "light user", as the hot water sits in the tank cooling down for longer than it does for a heavy user. Either way, the tankless option costs less to operate as you only heat the water you use, nothing more.
No I meant a heavy user. If you don't use tons of hot water every month it's not worth going tankless. A couple myths with gas are, tankless will save you lots of money, false. Your gas usage for hot water is minimal,check your gas bill when you're only using your water heater, you'll see how little you really use. Most of the gas bill is customer, and delivery charges. Enbridge makes it's profit from delivery charges. A tankles may save you $5-$10 a month compared the extra cost of the heater, approx $1500- $2000 more, it'll take you around around 12 - 15 yrs to break even. Myth #2, you can save lots of money by turning off a standing pilot in the summer. A standing pilot may cost $5-10 a yr to run. In the summer a pilot usage is so small it probably wouldn't register on your gas meter. Myth #3 all gas techs are crooks, most gas techs are honest people, the problem is, if you're talking to us, it's probably costing you money because something is wrong, most companies like Direct Energy are the crooks, as they mark up parts 300%, and charge approx $100 to show up at your door, so a $14 part could cost you $150, but the tech isn't making that money. Mtyh #4 gas is dangerous, gas really isn't that dangerous, you would have to have a massive leak for an explosion to happen. I have been in houses that had big leaks and yet they are still standing. A properly maintained furnace is safe. The biggest myth is, Enbridge Gas makes all it's money from the sale of gas, as I posted before, they don't make any money from the sale of gas, they sell it at the price they pay for it, Enbridge isn't a gas reseller, they are a distribution company. last one is, most ppl think Enbridge and Direct Energy are the same company, they are totally different companies, Direct Energy bought Enbridge's home services company years ago
 
No I meant a heavy user. If you don't use tons of hot water every month it's not worth going tankless. A couple myths with gas are, tankless will save you lots of money, false. Your gas usage for hot water is minimal,check your gas bill when you're only using your water heater, you'll see how little you really use. Most of the gas bill is customer, and delivery charges. Enbridge makes it's profit from delivery charges. A tankles may save you $5-$10 a month compared the extra cost of the heater, approx $1500- $2000 more, it'll take you around around 12 - 15 yrs to break even. Myth #2, you can save lots of money by turning off a standing pilot in the summer. A standing pilot may cost $5-10 a yr to run. In the summer a pilot usage is so small it probably wouldn't register on your gas meter. Myth #3 all gas techs are crooks, most gas techs are honest people, the problem is, if you're talking to us, it's probably costing you money because something is wrong, most companies like Direct Energy are the crooks, as they mark up parts 300%, and charge approx $100 to show up at your door, so a $14 part could cost you $150, but the tech isn't making that money. Mtyh #4 gas is dangerous, gas really isn't that dangerous, you would have to have a massive leak for an explosion to happen. I have been in houses that had big leaks and yet they are still standing. A properly maintained furnace is safe. The biggest myth is, Enbridge Gas makes all it's money from the sale of gas, as I posted before, they don't make any money from the sale of gas, they sell it at the price they pay for it, Enbridge isn't a gas reseller, they are a distribution company. last one is, most ppl think Enbridge and Direct Energy are the same company, they are totally different companies, Direct Energy bought Enbridge's home services company years ago

Do u love Honda motorcycles?
 
I think you may need to do some research, tankless heaters use a LOT of gas to heat since its a zero to 130 in a flash, heavy users will pay, since its electronic ignition and only heats what you use light users get off better. A 60gal gas heater is approx $500, tankless $2000 if you shop it, and I own one, break even is not 12-15yrs.

How is pilot light usage less in the summer months? I checked mine on the appliances that have it, didnt get smaller or burn less bright or even take a nap over the summer months.

Next to space heating, in the average Ontario home heating a water tank is the second largest expenditure and consumer of gas. Gas use for hot water is minimal? not according to the building sciences people.
When you have a gas range/BBQ/dryer/water heater/furnace and fireplace how are you going to look at a bill and see when your only using your water heater? If you only have a heater you have no reference and if you have other appliances the bill doesnt seperate those for you.
 
I think you may need to do some research, tankless heaters use a LOT of gas to heat since its a zero to 130 in a flash, heavy users will pay, since its electronic ignition and only heats what you use light users get off better. A 60gal gas heater is approx $500, tankless $2000 if you shop it, and I own one, break even is not 12-15yrs.

How is pilot light usage less in the summer months? I checked mine on the appliances that have it, didnt get smaller or burn less bright or even take a nap over the summer months.

Next to space heating, in the average Ontario home heating a water tank is the second largest expenditure and consumer of gas. Gas use for hot water is minimal? not according to the building sciences people.
When you have a gas range/BBQ/dryer/water heater/furnace and fireplace how are you going to look at a bill and see when your only using your water heater? If you only have a heater you have no reference and if you have other appliances the bill doesnt seperate those for you.
LMFAO, think I have done some research, I've been a G1 for 21 years, so I believe I have learned something about gas. Although an on demand water heater has a higher BTU value, it runs a lot less. If you take a 15 min shower, it runs for that time, where as a conventional AWH runs for the duration plus the recovery time,therefor it runs for approx 3 to 4 times longer. In a house of say6 ppl, and each will shower every day, one after the other, approx 15 min showers, an on demand will run roughly 1 1/2 hrs where a conventional heater will run approx4-5 hrs continuous. The pilot myth is ppl think pilots on fireplaces, furnaces ect, cost a lot of money if left on gor the summer, but in reality the cost of a pilot running is so miniscule it's irrelevant. Most houses have a water heater and a furnace, so in the summer you can see exactly how much gas is used to heat water. My entire cost of gas is $625 a yr, that's heating, water heater and dryer. I have 3 teenaged kids, so we are doing laundry every day. so lets say my gas to heat water is $250 a yr, that's $20 a month roughly. If I had an on demand water heater, maybe and it's a big maybe I can save $5 a month, which is $60 a yr. factor in that the on demand costs 1500-2000 more installed, it would take over 20 yrs for me to break even, now take in to account on demand water heaters will break down over that period, probably 2 times. Most companies will charge $100 to show up at your door, plus the inflated cost to repair it. It's not worth it. Here is a setup where I was working today, that will save the Rest. money.
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Look at that, me and Oilycreek are agreeing on something.

Like i said earlier...in summer months, its costing me $6.55 in gas to heat my water for a month and use my drier...thats with the old tank, the new one is even less...

in fact, here's the break down for the gas bill from Sept 19 to Oct 19.

Customer Charge - $19
Delivery to you - $3.75
Transportation to Enbridge - 2.61
Gas Supply Charge $6.55
Cost Adjustment - 0.75 Credit

Total $31. Actual gas related charges in total are $12. Again, even if you save 30% on your bill thats still only a saving of $3.60. In a year you've saved $43.

Notice what the biggest cost is by far? Being their customer....

A lot of people jump on the tankless system without realizing the additonal costs of it. Tankless require a lot more gas flow...a lot of houses have to be upgraded to 1" pipe to properly feed it. The exhaust system is also much more complicated. Reading into it, and doing my research that $2K system becomes a $4K system VERY quickly.

Only way i would go with tankless is if i'm starting from scratch....building a new house and i have my say in which system i want installed, at which point i would also be installing the recovery system that exchanges heat from used shower water and its used to preheat the incoming water.
 
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Look at that, me and Oilycreek are agreeing on something.

Like i said earlier...in summer months, its costing me $6.55 in gas to heat my water for a month and use my drier...thats with the old tank, the new one is even less...

in fact, here's the break down for the gas bill from Sept 19 to Oct 19.

Customer Charge - $19
Delivery to you - $3.75
Transportation to Enbridge - 2.61
Gas Supply Charge $6.55
Cost Adjustment - 0.75 Credit

Total $31. Actual gas related charges in total are $12. Again, even if you save 30% on your bill thats still only a saving of $3.60. In a year you've saved $43.

Notice what the biggest cost is by far? Being their customer....

A lot of people jump on the tankless system without realizing the additonal costs of it. Tankless require a lot more gas flow...a lot of houses have to be upgraded to 1" pipe to properly feed it. The exhaust system is also much more complicated. Reading into it, and doing my research that $2K system becomes a $4K system VERY quickly.

Only way i would go with tankless is if i'm starting from scratch....building a new house and i have my say in which system i want installed, at which point i would also be installing the recovery system that exchanges heat from used shower water and its used to preheat the incoming water.
Lets not make a habit of it lol. It takes the fun out of it. :)
 
Just to update, called DE back and found out they do have a facility in Brampton on Rutherford Road... and it has weekend hours, so I should be able to return it myself - especially since I think the water heater should be able to fit in my hatchback, so I don't need to rely on someone with a truck.

As for the efficiency debate with tankless vs gas WHs, I think it should be obvious that only the heavy user would really see enough benefit to make the investment worthwhile.

Think about it like a vehicle. If you drive only 100km a month and decide to buy a Hummer H1 versus a civic, sure you will use 2 or 3 times as much fuel, but it will still be bugger-all fuel so it doesn't make or break you with either choice. If you drive 5000km a month, however, which vehicle you use will make a huge difference.

For my house-hold it is not even worth considering a tank-less. There are only 2 of us in the house, we wash dishes by hand in luke-warm water, do laundry once a week with cold water, and half of the week I shower at the gym before coming home. My gas-bill during the summer (only WH running) is $50 and that is with the $15 rental in there... so I am not looking at saving much by going more efficient. My tank now is a 60 Gallon tank, is 8 years old, and seems to come on an awful lot for using very little hot water.

I think I will just buy a small (i.e. 40 US Gal) water heater with a reasonable EF (~0.62 to 0.67) or so... I've seen some of these around for about $450 and my brother-in-law is a gas-fitter, so the installation will be cheap enough.
 
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