COVID and the housing market | Page 334 | GTAMotorcycle.com

COVID and the housing market

JT is messing about in socialism , even the progressive in progressive conservative insinuates left leaning and the liberals are quite left. Controlling profits in grocery is trying to tip the market . Price fixing by grocers is illegal because it tips the market , JT is hoping to get grocers to fall in line or else ? Or else what ? Federal grocery store ? Please
The CERB loans were nuts , how about a loan for those that need it , not open season. Take a typical Ontario medium business , Fred’s machining . Fred has a holding company that owns the building his machine shop is in . He has set up his kids with a company that cuts the grass and plows the snow , and owns all the equipment including the tractor that actually sits at the cottage . Dad over pays for landscaping because why not . And all four businesses got CERB grants . And thousands of businesses did it .


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crankcall said:
JT is messing about in socialism , even the progressive in progressive conservative insinuates left leaning and the liberals are quite left. Controlling profits in grocery is trying to tip the market . Price fixing by grocers is illegal because it tips the market , JT is hoping to get grocers to fall in line or else ? Or else what ? Federal grocery store ? Please
The CERB loans were nuts , how about a loan for those that need it , not open season. Take a typical Ontario medium business , Fred’s machining . Fred has a holding company that owns the building his machine shop is in . He has set up his kids with a company that cuts the grass and plows the snow , and owns all the equipment including the tractor that actually sits at the cottage . Dad over pays for landscaping because why not . And all four businesses got CERB grants . And thousands of businesses did it .


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I can't wrap my head around how people are so financially / business savy to set these types of deals up.

I don't have that bone in my body. No clue how to go about it, and don't know how to do it.

Guess I'll be working for 'da man' (literally cause I work for the gov't) for life.
 
crankcall said:
JT is messing about in socialism , even the progressive in progressive conservative insinuates left leaning and the liberals are quite left. Controlling profits in grocery is trying to tip the market . Price fixing by grocers is illegal because it tips the market , JT is hoping to get grocers to fall in line or else ? Or else what ? Federal grocery store ? Please
The CERB loans were nuts , how about a loan for those that need it , not open season. Take a typical Ontario medium business , Fred’s machining . Fred has a holding company that owns the building his machine shop is in . He has set up his kids with a company that cuts the grass and plows the snow , and owns all the equipment including the tractor that actually sits at the cottage . Dad over pays for landscaping because why not . And all four businesses got CERB grants . And thousands of businesses did it .


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We are supposed to be operating in a free market.

Grocery stores, and for that matter, any business, that forms a monopoly or oligopoly is OK providing they don't use that to tip the scales -- they are expected and somewhat legally obliged to operate as if they are in a Perfect condition market. Collaboration, collusion, or conspiring to fix profits comes with risks.

In Canada, a handful of corporations have formed a collaborative oligopoly, and based on their recent across-the-board windfall profits, it's pretty clear they are abusing consumers. This is not a good thing, this is something the gov't needs to act upon. If I were king, I'd force the break-up Empire, Loblaw, and Metro along the lines of their existing brands. For example, Loblaw has consolidated control of: Dominion, Fortinos, Freshmart, Loblaws, No Frills, Provigo, Real Canadian Superstore, Shoppers Drug Mart / Pharmaprix, SuperValu, T & T Supermarket, Valu-mart, & Zehrs Markets - and a few more. Break them up to restore a healthy level of competition.

CERB? That blame falls squarely on a handful of people that have demonstrated incompetence, and shortfalls in integrity and honour. Polling appears to show most Canadians want them to step down, I doubt that will happen so we hunker down till 2025 and then punt them out of office.
 
Mad Mike said:
CERB? That blame falls squarely on a handful of people that have demonstrated incompetence, and shortfalls in integrity and honour. Polling appears to show most Canadians want them to step down, I doubt that will happen so we hunker down till 2025 and then punt them out of office.
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The next election is what...2 years away? I wouldn't be so sure that Canadians will vote this turd and his cronies out for 100%.

In recent days he appears to be taking housing 'seriously' and why do we think that is? He's had 8 years to deal with it, but this week the latest polling numbers show him as falling further and further behind.

Polls bad? Change your tune to increase polls.

The NDP is the real issue, they HAVE the power to take it away from JT...but they won't. Because this is the only time they feel like they're in any type of position with say (which they don't use for any good anyway).
 
Dear Lord , a federal NDP govt will fulfill JTs moms dream . Castro running Canada.
It’s a bit like the 40s when the Germans bombed the coastal village of Weston, there was nothing there worth as much as the bomb they were dropping but it gave the Westonians sense of importance, being chosen for a bombing run .
In the next year we will see a chicken in every pot platform, housing starts on alleged rental sites , bigger carbon tax and a grocery GST rebate because “Lowblaw bad” . We will argue carbon footprints while keeping spare Polaris jets on hand for evacuation from really poor global summit meetings , and let’s not start on the cost of two RCMP security details while JT goes left and Sophie goes right.
His solutions come at a price the middle class can ill afford . One more equity speech and I’ll puke .


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mimico_polak said:
The next election is what...2 years away? I wouldn't be so sure that Canadians will vote this turd and his cronies out for 100%.

In recent days he appears to be taking housing 'seriously' and why do we think that is? He's had 8 years to deal with it, but this week the latest polling numbers show him as falling further and further behind.

Polls bad? Change your tune to increase polls.

The NDP is the real issue, they HAVE the power to take it away from JT...but they won't. Because this is the only time they feel like they're in any type of position with say (which they don't use for any good anyway).
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The NDP and their followers should talk to my friend from Honduras. It was mostly an agricultural economy but they did have a wire goods manufacturer. A new government came in and increased taxes on the manufacturer.

They moved to Columbia.

Purchasing agent to seller: "Name something you sell that I can't buy from someone else." It works for countries as well.
 
nobbie48 said:
One of my pet peeves is hearing people say the government should do more with housing.

Anything done by the government is paid for by the taxpayer.

Suing the government is also suing the taxpayer.

There is no incentive for the government to change the mentality.
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At a municipal level, they could fire most of the morons involved. So much BS and bureaucracy that does absolutely nothing to improve the end product but wastes a ton of time and money. There is a simple path to save taxpayers a lot of money and get houses built faster. As you move up the foodchain, they have less effect (although if JT triggers a federal EA for greenbelt development, that is a clear signal that he values environment more than housing as that will delay those projects by years and cost a bloody fortune).
 
GreyGhost said:
At a municipal level, they could fire most of the morons involved. So much BS and bureaucracy that does absolutely nothing to improve the end product but wastes a ton of time and money. There is a simple path to save taxpayers a lot of money and get houses built faster. As you move up the foodchain, they have less effect (although if JT triggers a federal EA for greenbelt development, that is a clear signal that he values environment more than housing as that will delay those projects by years and cost a bloody fortune).
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I see a few simple things that could be universally done.

1) Standardize zoning across Ontario CMAs - same zoning rules for everyone -- take out the NIMBYs and bureaucratic roadblockers with a single bullet.
  • Use Toronto's definitions and minimums for frontages, setbacks, lot coverage etc for R1 to R4. Eliminate carveouts for minimum frontages or lot sizes. Then automatically rejig property titles on existing lots if the new sizes permitted more than one lot at no cost to the owners. This would create thousands of potential building lots, possibly even enough to drive prices lower.
  • Automatically convert Residential zoning within 100m of a major arterial road that has subways, streetcars or dedicated bus lanes to Apartment/Commercial. This would speed up the 5 year process it takes to build an apartment or MDU AND put those buildings directly on transit lines.
2) Establish a library of pre-approved building designs that meet building code and zoning requirements for singles up to 8 plexes. These designs could be fast pathed through building approvals if used as is. Encourage builders to provide those designs on a royalty-free basis in exchange for expedited approvals.

3) Find a way to review the Greenbelt with input from citizens and scientists. Find a way to move lands around so that sensitive lands remain in tact, but non-sensitive lands that could relieve housing pressures get changed out for like lands elsewhere.
 
There we go with NIMBY this NIMBY that.... NIMBY once touched me...

Land hoarding is a much bigger problem. Basic supply and demand, except the supply side is slowed by hoarding and games.

Actually living IN Toronto and seeing what is really happening, not outside.... Developers buy up land zoned for six stories (example), spend years fighting the zoning (asking to build multiples of that, beside SFHs) and then build seven. There is a crap tonne of land siting vacant/unused today, I count many dozen of developments within 10 minutes of my place in Etobicoke, that have been sitting for many multiples of years even AFTER they get their seven stories (yep they have the go ahead, must be NIMBYs stopping them). The real story, they buy up the land but don't have the resources to develop it, so they hoard it until they do--which prevents others from developing it. Might as well fight for that one extra story in the process.... Yep all NIMBY.

Simple fact, developers buy land knowing the zoning, for most secondary arteries that is six stories. Other areas it is much higher. If they just built to it there would be NO housing crisis in the city today. All games.

That land mentioned above, sometimes hey knock the buildings down and leave it flat. Sometimes they evict the tenants (businesses) and leave them empty to rot. Sometimes they just continue to rent them out (businesses AND a big one car dealerships) but locals know because they apply for the zoning change and then years and years go by after the hearings are done and nothing is getting built. IMO, want to speed this up, yes there is stream lining at city hall, some updates to zoning but more importantly, once they apply for any building permits, tear-down etc. the property tax on the land goes to what the completed project will be with a one year grace period.... Want to hoard land, it will cost you.

There are good ones BTW, they buy knowing six (or whatever), they immediately build six (or whatever), they move on to the next one. Build to what it is zoned for there is nothing any NIMBY can do...
****
Now IF we really want to solve the shortage, close all the private golf clubs in and around the city and turn them into town homes and high rise housing! That is a great start, make some of it parks everyone can use to keep some of that green space! Much better than building million dollar McMansions on the greenbelt and lining connected developer's pockets as solution to affordable housing.
 
backmarkerducati said:
There we go with NIMBY this NIMBY that.... NIMBY once touched me...

Land hoarding is a much bigger problem. Basic supply and demand, except the supply side is slowed by hoarding and games.

Actually living IN Toronto and seeing what is really happening, not outside.... Developers buy up land zoned for six stories (example), spend years fighting the zoning (asking to build multiples of that, beside SFHs) and then build seven. There is a crap tonne of land siting vacant/unused today, I count many dozen of developments within 10 minutes of my place in Etobicoke, that have been sitting for many multiples of years even AFTER they get their seven stories (yep they have the go ahead, must be NIMBYs stopping them). The real story, they buy up the land but don't have the resources to develop it, so they hoard it until they do--which prevents others from developing it. Might as well fight for that one extra story in the process.... Yep all NIMBY.

Simple fact, developers buy land knowing the zoning, for most secondary arteries that is six stories. Other areas it is much higher. If they just built to it there would be NO housing crisis in the city today. All games.

That land mentioned above, sometimes hey knock the buildings down and leave it flat. Sometimes they evict the tenants (businesses) and leave them empty to rot. Sometimes they just continue to rent them out (businesses AND a big one car dealerships) but locals know because they apply for the zoning change and then years and years go by after the hearings are done and nothing is getting built. IMO, want to speed this up, yes there is stream lining at city hall, some updates to zoning but more importantly, once they apply for any building permits, tear-down etc. the property tax on the land goes to what the completed project will be with a one year grace period.... Want to hoard land, it will cost you.

There are good ones BTW, they buy knowing six (or whatever), they immediately build six (or whatever), they move on to the next one. Build to what it is zoned for there is nothing any NIMBY can do...
****
Now IF we really want to solve the shortage, close all the private golf clubs in and around the city and turn them into town homes and high rise housing! That is a great start, make some of it parks everyone can use to keep some of that green space! Much better than building million dollar McMansions on the greenbelt and lining connected developer's pockets as solution to affordable housing.
Click to expand...
Barrie is having a disagreement right now. Smart centre's owns a field that is designated for commercial and going through the process. They have applied for the extention to agricultural exemption so they can continue to pay 8K a year in property tax. The uproar would be funny if it wasn't so sad. "Think of the poor farmer that will lose income if that is no longer farmed" crap. Nothing is stopping smartcentres from continuing to rent the field to the farmer. Them saving hundreds of thousands on property tax is directly picked up by barrie citizens. F smart centre's. Its zoned, start taxing at highest and best use. If they want to delay construction, that's on them.
 
GreyGhost said:
Barrie is having a disagreement right now. Smart centre's owns a field that is designated for commercial and going through the process. They have applied for the extention to agricultural exemption so they can continue to pay 8K a year in property tax. The uproar would be funny if it wasn't so sad. "Think of the poor farmer that will lose income if that is no longer farmed" crap. Nothing is stopping smartcentres from continuing to rent the field to the farmer. Them saving hundreds of thousands on property tax is directly picked up by barrie citizens. F smart centre's. Its zoned, start taxing at highest and best use. If they want to delay construction, that's on them.
Click to expand...
Is the refinery / oil depot at Finch / Keele still paying farm taxes?
 
backmarkerducati said:
There we go with NIMBY this NIMBY that.... NIMBY once touched me...

Land hoarding is a much bigger problem. Basic supply and demand, except the supply side is slowed by hoarding and games.

Actually living IN Toronto and seeing what is really happening, not outside.... Developers buy up land zoned for six stories (example), spend years fighting the zoning (asking to build multiples of that, beside SFHs) and then build seven. There is a crap tonne of land siting vacant/unused today, I count many dozen of developments within 10 minutes of my place in Etobicoke, that have been sitting for many multiples of years even AFTER they get their seven stories (yep they have the go ahead, must be NIMBYs stopping them). The real story, they buy up the land but don't have the resources to develop it, so they hoard it until they do--which prevents others from developing it. Might as well fight for that one extra story in the process.... Yep all NIMBY.

Simple fact, developers buy land knowing the zoning, for most secondary arteries that is six stories. Other areas it is much higher. If they just built to it there would be NO housing crisis in the city today. All games.

That land mentioned above, sometimes hey knock the buildings down and leave it flat. Sometimes they evict the tenants (businesses) and leave them empty to rot. Sometimes they just continue to rent them out (businesses AND a big one car dealerships) but locals know because they apply for the zoning change and then years and years go by after the hearings are done and nothing is getting built. IMO, want to speed this up, yes there is stream lining at city hall, some updates to zoning but more importantly, once they apply for any building permits, tear-down etc. the property tax on the land goes to what the completed project will be with a one year grace period.... Want to hoard land, it will cost you.

There are good ones BTW, they buy knowing six (or whatever), they immediately build six (or whatever), they move on to the next one. Build to what it is zoned for there is nothing any NIMBY can do...
****
Now IF we really want to solve the shortage, close all the private golf clubs in and around the city and turn them into town homes and high rise housing! That is a great start, make some of it parks everyone can use to keep some of that green space! Much better than building million dollar McMansions on the greenbelt and lining connected developer's pockets as solution to affordable housing.
Click to expand...
I don’t think it’s that simple for developers. The timeline to get a building started

My point is to fix zoning. No changes, no excuses. Inside 100m to a transit corridor? Buy the land, submit your compliant plan an go. No lobbying or finagling for an extra storey.

Another thing that would happen is tons of 60’ suburban lots could be converted to city sized 30’, creating thousands of new lots for small builders, possibly at lower prices if they ease demand.

I don’t think the tax thing is really an issue for serviced land in Toronto. Anything knocked down would likely have had the same value as the blanked land. Serviced land is highly taxed considering there are no services.
 
GreyGhost said:
Barrie is having a disagreement right now. Smart centre's owns a field that is designated for commercial and going through the process. They have applied for the extention to agricultural exemption so they can continue to pay 8K a year in property tax. The uproar would be funny if it wasn't so sad. "Think of the poor farmer that will lose income if that is no longer farmed" crap. Nothing is stopping smartcentres from continuing to rent the field to the farmer. Them saving hundreds of thousands on property tax is directly picked up by barrie citizens. F smart centre's. Its zoned, start taxing at highest and best use. If they want to delay construction, that's on them.
Click to expand...
I agree with that, serviced land should pay assessed rates. It is usually that way, my guess is Smartcenters believe they have some sway over the hayseeds in local govt.
 
Mad Mike said:
I don’t think it’s that simple for developers. The timeline to get a building started

My point is to fix zoning. No changes, no excuses. Inside 100m to a transit corridor? Buy the land, submit your compliant plan an go. No lobbying or finagling for an extra storey.

Another thing that would happen is tons of 60’ suburban lots could be converted to city sized 30’, creating thousands of new lots for small builders, possibly at lower prices if they ease demand.

I don’t think the tax thing is really an issue for serviced land in Toronto. Anything knocked down would likely have had the same value as the blanked land. Serviced land is highly taxed considering there are no services.
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An example, real world, at the north end of our hood developers bought up the land along the main road that is currently all commercial low rise, most of the commercial tenants have been kicked out. No subway there but not far away. SFHs back onto this land. The zoning says six stories with a set-back from the property line between the houses and buildings. Still plenty of room to build large buildings... Developers bought the land knowing the rules... For all but the long term people the SFH people all bought under those same rules.

Developers are going to battle now wanting to build 18 stories basically on the fence line. So are the people that own those homes evil NIMBYs for not wanting an 18 story building at their back yard fence, when zoning is six with set-backs? This exact things is going on over and over. It delays the builds, delays housing and the developers are just playing games as they knew the rules when they bought, value based on those rules. In the end they will waste years and build seven with the correct set-back.... BUT why not do this when they are hoarding the land and do not have the resources to even build six today (too many on the go), they might as well screw around and play the game for comparably pittance in lawyer fees.

The solution is to TAX the crap out of them when doing this based on final build's value. Make it cost serious money to hoard develop-able land and not build on it. Make that land available for good developers that will build on it and follow zoning without games. Once the ball starts rolling, small grace period to get it done then TAX!

It is a big scale problem and small scale is not the scale-able solution.
 
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