Cornering situation

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Nope never! Actually last time i fell down i lost the front trying to be a little bit of a trail braking hero and was accused (by accused i mean told that it looked like) i locked the rear playing with the back brake, nope not a chance lol

I still dont get it, so do you disagree with the statement that leaning the bike will make the bike turn more then dragging the rear brake? I know once i'm all the way over on the right there is no shifting my foot to the rear brake.
 
FriendlyFoe said:
Nope never! Actually last time i fell down i lost the front trying to be a little bit of a trail braking hero and was accused (by accused i mean told that it looked like) i locked the rear playing with the back brake, nope not a chance lol

I still dont get it, so do you disagree with the statement that leaning the bike will make the bike turn more then dragging the rear brake? I know once i'm all the way over on the right there is no shifting my foot to the rear brake.
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If you've already used up all there is to use up of your tire, your options are limited.

Obviously the best option is to "turn more" but that's a finite variable. If you can't turn any more, you have to scrub speed.. and doing it with the rear brake doesn't just scrub speed, it also pivots the motorcycle around further by driving the front wheel tighter into the turn. All this also depends on body positioning.. some people don't hang off at all, especially on the street, and they're using way more lean angle for a given speed than they need to.

The facts remain:

1. Applying the front brakes during a turn stands the bike up and makes it run wide. Good luck with that in a decreasing radius.
2. Applying the rear brake during a turn tucks the front wheel tighter into the turn while scrubbing speed

Skilled riders will apply the rear brake and complete the turn if physics allow it (ie. not going excessively fast). Unskilled riders will either lowside or apply the front brakes in a panic, causing the bike to stand up and run into a ditch.
 
mmmnaked said:
If you've already used up all there is to use up of your tire, your options are limited.

Obviously the best option is to "turn more" but that's a finite variable. If you can't turn any more, you have to scrub speed.. and doing it with the rear brake doesn't just scrub speed,

All this also depends on body positioning.. some people don't hang off at all, especially on the street, and they're using way more lean angle for a given speed than they need to.
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How hard do you need to be riding a sport bike on the street to not be able to turn anymore? So we've established that with poor, crossed up body positioning the rear brake might be more effective then leaning the bike too far. In a decreasing radius corner drag the rear brake at moderate lean in hopes of it slowing you enough.

OR you could learn to trail the front brake into the corner, keeping the front loaded allowing you to ask more from the tire. Keep adding bar input while slowing with the front, increasing lean angle until you can make the corner.

I think i like my way better, but to each their own.
 
My tires are worn to the edges and always have been on my street bikes... so i guess its obvious that some folks are using about as much as their tires will physically allow.

Your 'way' assumes that you know ahead of time its a decreasing radius turn. The OP was caught by surprise. If he was riding at a modest 80% of his abilities and his tires, a surprise decreasing radius could easily take him to 100% or more lean angle. This is the kind of situation that warrants the use of the rear brake, provided you actually know how to use it. Why wouldn't you want multiple tools at your disposal instead of just one? In a situation like this, he could push the bike over further WHILE applying the rear brake to tighten up the radius. When I'm caught by surprise, I use all the methods I can, at once.

Orrrrr, he could apply the front brake and scream like a girl while riding into oncoming traffic or a ditch. Whatever.
 
mmmnaked said:
Orrrrr, he could apply the front brake and scream like a girl while riding into oncoming traffic or a ditch. Whatever.
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Which is the reason I stopped doing any sort of newbie rides. Although I did ride with my OPP friend again all Saturday with her behind me... she understands cause and effect better than most people, however, being an enforcement officer.
 
Friendlyfoe,

The rear brake is your friend,, FULL STOP!

The arguments being used against this technique are based on "EXPERIENCE" or lack of it.

if it was used and learned and new riders were not made to feel this piece of equipment will immediately have them entering orbit, there would be an applicable skill set with the tool and it could be used properly and accurately.
 
So you're riding to the edges of the tire, riding aggressively enough that you occasionally get bit by a decreasing radius corner, but not getting off the seat? If i'm going to ride on the street like it's a race track id be hanging off, at which point with my knee on the ground the rear brake is not accessible.

You're talking about riding over the limit on roads you dont know, OP is talking about a way of generally managing decreasing radius corners. Just the act of rolling off makes the bike turn in, and shift the weight forward which gives you the opportunity to drag at the brake lever.

Another point is the fact that while it may be physically harder to make a bike change direction under braking, the more you compress the front suspension the quicker the bike will turn as you have reduced trail. Equal speed and lean angle, a bike with the front end compressed will take a tighter line.
 
I like how some people can't seem to accept that there may be multiple ways of doing things and maybe, just maybe their way of doing things may not be the best way ever.
 
FriendlyFoe said:
So you're riding to the edges of the tire, riding aggressively enough that you occasionally get bit by a decreasing radius corner, but not getting off the seat? If i'm going to ride on the street like it's a race track id be hanging off, at which point with my knee on the ground the rear brake is not accessible.

You're talking about riding over the limit on roads you dont know, OP is talking about a way of generally managing decreasing radius corners. Just the act of rolling off makes the bike turn in, and shift the weight forward which gives you the opportunity to drag at the brake lever.

Another point is the fact that while it may be physically harder to make a bike change direction under braking, the more you compress the front suspension the quicker the bike will turn as you have reduced trail. Equal speed and lean angle, a bike with the front end compressed will take a tighter line.
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Dude what are you still rambling on about.......???

The rear brake is an excellent tool for tightening up the radius of a turn. It can be a decreasing radius turn, or it can be you going too hot into a corner at the track because you wanted to stuff your buddy under braking. The situation doesn't matter, the fact is that the rear brake is a perfectly suited tool for the job, and those who know how to use it, aren't afraid of it.

You don't know, so you're afraid. Maybe instead of arguing you can go out there and practice the method yourself.

Next time you're running wide go ahead and 'compress the front suspension' with the front brake and let me know how that 'reduced trail' works out for you... send pics from the hospital. :rolleyes:
 
reciprocity said:
Friendlyfoe,

The rear brake is your friend,, FULL STOP!

The arguments being used against this technique are based on "EXPERIENCE" or lack of it.
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I dont disagree that at the limits of lean angle, coming around the second half of a decreasing radius corner you can use the rear to tighten your line. This would be a most advanced technique after learning how to properly do everything else, and is still inaccessible around right hand corners unless you have a hand control for it.

What other situation are you using it in?

On the street in my mind unless you've completely overshot the corner rolling off and leaning the bike more will get you through more effectively then dragging the rear brake.
 
FriendlyFoe said:
On the street in my mind unless you've completely overshot the corner rolling off and leaning the bike more will get you through more effectively then dragging the rear brake.
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How would you know?

It's only because you (and others) are afraid of the rear brake that you consider the technique a last and final resort. Some of us are comfortable enough to use it under any number of situations..
 
redridernl said:
Worst advice in this thread... and that's saying something. :rolleyes:
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Well, to be fair, that's a bit harsh. Some of what friendly has been saying is true, although FTR I'm not a rear brake fan. I prefer to freeup whatever level of conscious thought I'd be using on rear braking, for all the other things taxing my brain at the time. (which could include an impromptu session of wills with an unannounced Bamby too).

But it is an undeniable fact that you want weight on the front tire. It is one of the reasons that inline 4's have never gone away for racing. Their almost endless reserve of revs and ease of keeping central mass forward enough to help counteract the riders weight placement, which is a lot less negotiable. Longer engines like Ducati L's and VFR's, RC51's etc go to greater lengths (using side mounted rads etc) to try to keep the length of the engine shortened up so that orientation lets weight be forward but not compromised under hard braking dive. One of the most common practices is to tilt the engine forward. Yamaha started doing that way back when they were first messing around with 5 valve heads, even though they were already inline 4's they were still making efforts to keep weight forward and low to preserve a LCG. Those were good handling bikes in their day too.
 
nesobriquet said:
Well, to be fair, that's a bit harsh. Some of what friendly has been saying is true, although FTR I'm not a rear brake fan. I prefer to freeup whatever level of conscious thought I'd be using on rear braking, for all the other things taxing my brain at the time. (which could include an impromptu session of wills with an unannounced Bamby too).

But it is an undeniable fact that you want weight on the front tire. It is one of the reasons that inline 4's have never gone away for racing. Their almost endless reserve of revs and ease of keeping central mass forward enough to help counteract the riders weight placement, which is a lot less negotiable. Longer engines like Ducati L's and VFR's, RC51's etc go to greater lengths (using side mounted rads etc) to try to keep the length of the engine shortened up so that orientation lets weight be forward but not compromised under hard braking dive. One of the most common practices is to tilt the engine forward. Yamaha started doing that way back when they were first messing around with 5 valve heads, even though they were already inline 4's they were still making efforts to keep weight forward and low to preserve a LCG. Those were good handling bikes in their day too.
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That's great but I don't see what that has to do with telling someone to roll off to tighten your line. You want to get weight on the front for corner entry. Rolling off mid-corner is just going to upset everything.
 
FriendlyFoe said:
On the street in my mind unless you've completely overshot the corner rolling off and leaning the bike more will get you through more effectively then dragging the rear brake.
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Here's a practical application of the skillset that can be done at low speed

find a parking lot etc, and do circle turns, then measure the radius of your turning circle.

now, try doing the same while dragging your rear brake,, you'll cut your turning radius nearly in half by doing this and can change the arc of the turn by increasing/decreasing brake pressure.

a bike will turn MUCH better with the throttle open than it will completely closed, but opening the throttle will want to stand the bike up, this is why you apply more lean angle under power, applying rear brake and power will allow you to maintain the same lean angle, turn the bike and make the corner.
 
redridernl said:
That's great but I don't see what that has to do with telling someone to roll off to tighten your line. You want to get weight on the front for corner entry. Rolling off mid-corner is just going to upset everything.
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ya I'm in agreement with that. I rarely roll off in any corner unless I am caught by surprise, and even then over the years of racing I've learned that it that moment, it is a serious case of mind over matter and I have made it through many corners by actually riding it through (neutral power) but more often with a slight acceleration. Bikes basic geometry (all styles) dictate that they go through corners best being ridden. (as opposed to coasting...or the extreme of coasting, braking)

But no way am I going to assume I've correctly interpreted the OP's skills etc and try to convey on email (which, on this topic is hilarious) how to go through corners that he has been overcooking at times. And FWIW I don't pay any heed whatsoever to an avatar. Could be real, or not.
 
It comes down to the fact that there are multiple ways to adress this situation and what a person can use or needs in any situation will depend on several variables such as speed, radius, lean angle, riders skill, surface conditions, type of bike etc.

A rider who knows and practicies more than one method will have more tools and options available in any given situation. I use many of the same techniques when riding such as proper body position no matter what bike I am riding, from my Vmax to my SV or FZ1. Knowing how to use both the front and rear brakes, knowing when I have reached max lean angle and other things all play into what I do when faced with a situation I was not planning for ahead of time.
 
When I did my course with exiting M2 they taugh us that in situations like that you have to apply both front and rear breaks gently to avoid wiping out.
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