cop that crashed

[turbodish]

Forum Sponsor

I shudder to think that this discussion could be happening about ME, had that Honda van started moving half a second earlier last week. FACTS: my initial speed was very close to the posted speed limit (80 km/h), the car driver DID NOT look for oncoming traffic properly. Somehow Turbodish would have been playing the blame-the-rider game in that one, too. (In that case, there was no other traffic around.)

If the police statements, media reports, and photographic evidence regarding your crash mirrored what police and media are saying about this one, then maybe the speculation might indeed be about your riding as being the primary cause of the crash, and rightfully so. The pictures of crash outcome and police commentary on the Dixon/Golfwood crash portray the rider as being far more than just a little quick through the intersection.

On the other hand, there have been a few left-hander, head-on, and rear-end fatalities this year where it's perfectly clear that the rider was riding properly and did little or nothing to cause or contribute to the crash severity other than simply being there. These riders are truly innocent victims.

However, it seems that there is an automatic kneejerk chorus of "cager at fault" whenever a motorcycle crash happens involving car or truck. Bikes apparently can do no wrong. This kneejerk BS is practiced over and over again by some riders here, but I guess it's to be expected. If the fault is always on the other party, then there's no need to look hard at, recognize, and maybe change what you bring to the table.

 

[Duster929]

Let's not forget that about 2/3 of motorcycle accidents involve a vehicle turning left in front of a motorcycle. This isn't a new thing or a mystery, and we don't have to be so shocked that it happened. It happens a lot, to conscientious car drivers and conscientious motorcyclists. We all know why and how it happens. The only things usual here are that it's a dumptruck, which some might say makes this more unlikely (not sure why), and the rider was a cop, so there seems to be some higher standard of ridership being applied to him.

 

[turbodish]

Let's not forget that about 2/3 of motorcycle accidents involve a vehicle turning left in front of a motorcycle.

Does it? Seems that about half of crashes are single motorcycle no other vehicle crashes where the motorcycle lost control and and left the roadway. Even a good number of the remaining multiple vehicle crashes started out as a result of a motorcycle losing control all by itself before it slammed into another vehicle.

Of the remainder, yes there are a number of left-turn collisions, but even there rider error or misbehaviour is a factor in at least some of them.

This is just a summary of the 2011 fatals that I've found in the media so far this year. I'm quite sure there are more, but 33 at the 2011 season's half-way point (given 53 fatalities for all of the 2008 season) suggests I've found a good number of them.

33 fatal crashes, Date, approx location, rider name if known and ? if not known, crash synopsis.
17-Apr sarnia ? lost control, excess speed, hit curb and fence
30-Apr gardiner expressway Gauthier lost control, flew over median, landed in oncoming traffic
5-May kitchener Lazic high speed in city, lost control
5-May waterloo Summer lost control on curve
13-May west lincoln Yellow car at fault head-on
13-May kemptville sutcliffe bike crossed in front of highway traffic
31-May brantford ? intersection, unknown fault
1-Jun 401 Oshawa Forsythe rear ended car, fell under truck
5-Jun Elgin Cty Gilders lost control, left road
6-Jun west lincoln ? rider crossed center line on bend, hit oncoming truck
8-Jun highway 9 ? ran into back of car
9-Jun keele and 9 ? lost control, left road
11-Jun ottawa adamo lost control, hit culvert
12-Jun highway 9 metcalfe car lost control after collision with other car, crossed into opposing lane and hit oncoming rider
17-Jun cornwall randlett truck left turn in front of bike
17-Jun ottawa thibodeau bike hit deer
17-Jun fenelon falls Keveza bike swerved into oncoming traffic
19-Jun sarnia Wardell intersection collision with van, van believed at fault
30-Jun north pickering ? car left turn in front of bike
3-Jul elmira martin truck left turn in front of bike
4-Jul drayton Tennant bike ran stop sign, hit car
7-Jul Pickering Bayly Tony Excess speed around corner, went wide, hit car starting to make left turn into driveway
11-Jul niagara falls ? lost control, hit abutment
13-Jul embrun forgues intersection, unknown fault
17-Jul 401@Hanlon Collins ran into left turner at high speed while running from police
17-Jul Powassan Muldowney lost control, ran off road
20-Jul norval ? lost control, hit tree
26-Jul Owen Sound McCartney car left turn in front of bike
2-Aug Vaughan Torchia truck made left turn/ rider lost control, possible excess speed?
2-Aug windsor Abbas excess speed, wide on turn, head-on into truck
4-Aug deep river Briere Lost control while passing, left road landed in ditch
7-Aug toronto(dixon rd) ? Lane split(?), high speed through intersection, hit by left turner
8-Aug 410@Steeles ? Rider excess speed in morning rush hour traffic ran into back of large truck

The only things usual here are that it's a dumptruck, which some might say makes this more unlikely (not sure why), and the rider was a cop, so there seems to be some higher standard of ridership being applied to him.

Yup, but scrutiny and an expectation of a high standard of riding should apply regardless of who the rider is, and regardless of whether the scrutiny is coming from investigating cops or from commenting riders.

 

[ToSlow]

.
.
.
.
.

 

[turbodish]

what i find odd is that this cop investigation on this thread never speaks of speeding, but the wreck on Dixon rd the media keeps saying speeding bike or speed might have played a factor

A York Region police officer was quoted by at least CITY-TV as saying that they were looking into all aspects of the crash, including that of speed.

"There's lots of circumstances that could be involved here -- improper turns, excess speeding -- and all of those circumstances we have to take into consideration," Sgt. Laurie Perks said.

The other thing is that Highway 7 is a, wait for it, "highway" in a still relatively rural area with an 80 kmph limit.

The Dixon Rd crash happened in the middle of the city in a predominately residential area, where the speed limit is lower and where speeds are expected to be lower. Between that and witness reports of the rider passing between 4 cars at high speed just before the crash, the apparent degree of recklessness certainly seems much more obvious than is readily apparent in the Highway 7 crash.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

A York Region police officer was quoted by at least CITY-TV as saying that they were looking into all aspects of the crash, including that of speed.

The other thing is that Highway 7 is a, wait for it, "highway" in a still relatively rural area with an 80 kmph limit.

The Dixon Rd crash happened in the middle of the city in a predominately residential area, where the speed limit is lower and where speeds are expected to be lower. Between that and witness reports of the rider passing between 4 cars at high speed just before the crash, the apparent degree of recklessness certainly seems much more obvious than is readily apparent in the Highway 7 crash.

speed limit is 60 there, though many do 80ish... compared to a speed limit of 80 where many do 100ish 20 km/h doesn't seem like much difference.

 

[Brian P]

Let's not forget that about 2/3 of motorcycle accidents involve a vehicle turning left in front of a motorcycle.

This is only approximately true of multi-vehicle collisions studied in the Hurt report. Somewhere near half of motorcycle fatalities are single-vehicle crashes involving no other vehicle, as opposed to right-of-way violations resulting in collisions between vehicles.

 

[invictus43]

The Dixon Rd crash happened in the middle of the city in a predominately residential area, where the speed limit is lower and where speeds are expected to be lower. Between that and witness reports of the rider passing between 4 cars at high speed just before the crash, the apparent degree of recklessness certainly seems much more obvious than is readily apparent in the Highway 7 crash.

The thing about that area is that when you're going westbound, the road opens up to 3 lanes from 2. It's also going from a 50kmh zone east of Royal York to a 60kmh zone west of Royal York. Many people get impatient waiting for the extra lane to open and will tailgate/hedge to get the open lane. I suspect that the rider was behind one or two vehicles, saw that one of the lanes was opening up, sped up to get ahead/get possession of the lane. This means two things: he's exceeding the speed of the other vehicles and he's probably less visible as he's pulling out from behind other vehicles. I see it literally every day. I don't know who is to blame with this specific accident but it's a bad situation to be in.

 

[Duster929]

This is only approximately true of multi-vehicle collisions studied in the Hurt report. Somewhere near half of motorcycle fatalities are single-vehicle crashes involving no other vehicle, as opposed to right-of-way violations resulting in collisions between vehicles.

Fair enough. As we're talking about a multi-vehicle crash, the 2/3 number is still relevant. The point is, this isn't an uncommon type of accident - why all the speculation?

 

[invictus43]

Fair enough. As we're talking about a multi-vehicle crash, the 2/3 number is still relevant. The point is, this isn't an uncommon type of accident - why all the speculation?

I suppose the question that everyone wants answered is, if you're doing 100kmh in a 60kmh zone and someone turns left causing a collision, what level of blame is assigned to whom? Without facts, it's all purely speculation. And it's rather nonsensical at times since we really have no clue about the details.

 

[Duster929]

I suppose the question that everyone wants answered is, if you're doing 100kmh in a 60kmh zone and someone turns left causing a collision, what level of blame is assigned to whom? Without facts, it's all purely speculation. And it's rather nonsensical at times since we really have no clue about the details.

Whether that's a 60kph zone or not doesn't matter. 80kph is pretty much the minimum speed for "flow of traffic" along that stretch. At 60kph you would risk getting rear ended by a dumptruck.

Regardless, you're right that we don't have the details. But why not assume that it was just like all the other thousands of "left-turn" accidents?

 

[invictus43]

Whether that's a 60kph zone or not doesn't matter. 80kph is pretty much the minimum speed for "flow of traffic" along that stretch. At 60kph you would risk getting rear ended by a dumptruck.

Depends on time of day..I live right there..it's rare to get over 55kmh in rush hour. I generally find traffic speed in that spot to be about 70kmh.

Regardless, you're right that we don't have the details. But why not assume that it was just like all the other thousands of "left-turn" accidents?

You now what they say about "assume".. Seriously, we just don't know. Ther left-turner in both accidents hasn't been charged with anything so I find it difficult to point the finger at the left-turner in these two cases.

Forum Sponsor