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thank you for your patience and clearing this up. lwt prod'n was the original class (for 250/ 300's) and hasn't changed. 300 prod'n is the newer class that hasn't had any rules in the book for two seasons. whew. to have a class running for two seasons without any rules doesn't speak well for RACE. for me it made no sense to prep my gs500 for one class - lwt prod'n - when 400 fours and liquid cooled 500's were permitted. as for being able to bump to 300 prod'n with the gs500 - this is an unknown. too bad. for me, two classes to run in would be the minimum. three would be better.
 
bakaboy said:
I believe they split the 250 and 300 due to rider turnout. The rulebook for 2016 said that they would run together but scored separately.

4 races on a 250? If you had a 250 or 300 at RACE you would get 4 races if you paid entry fees for 300 Production and Lightweight classes. 2 Qualifiers on Saturday and 2 Final races on Sunday.

I am not familiar with any previous 300 classes that allowed a GS500.

There was discussion last winter to revise the Lightweight Production rules but nothing happened.

The 300 class needs a set of rules. Otherwise no one knows how they can build. And as I have discussed with others trackside, what will people do when an R3 rolls up to grid for 300 Production? Or a RC390? WSBK views them all relatively similar now.
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The new 300 class in WSBK has rev limits for the bikes over 300cc. There even using the CBR500 instead of the 300:p
 
STR said:
The new 300 class in WSBK has rev limits for the bikes over 300cc. There even using the CBR500 instead of the 300:p
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I was under the impression from their chart in the rulebook that all bikes have an rpm limit which, when I do a quick review, appear to be at or very close to the OEM max rev limit.

Tho, in fairness, they are very explicit that they can change this and the minimum weight at anytime to attempt to equate the various mfrs and displacements.
 
Slick_Steveo said:
Personally, the only thing that I would like to see, is that the classes be restricted to red numbers only. (sorry Mike )
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I kinda like Mike in the mix and would be great to see more experienced pro riders, especially being on the same bike as me. I learned a lot from being able to follow him for a few corners before he shot off in to the distance lol.

For me at least, I'm not bothered if I finished last or 2nd (who's actually going to beat Jared haha). As long as I see my skills progressing and lap times shortening, I'm happy!

edit: Have to beat the other Owen though. Can't be the 2nd place Owen.
 
boyoboy said:
I stumbled upon this a couple months ago, not sure where, but might have been fb?
I posted it on the race sticky - still there.



"Registration for Round 2 is now open. AMP is working the gravel trap installation so hopefully all will be good by next weekend. We will provide updates over the next week. There will be 2 250 Super-sport races as well as 2 separate 300 SS races for Round 2. 250s can bump into the 300 class and registration for those races as well. "

I guess it is open to interpretation, but it sounded like 4 finals to me.
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I looked it up. Yes sARL ran 2 points scoring races per round for each of the 250 and 300 classes at each of their 4 weekends. So if I had a 250 I could have 4 races per round.

In reality that is no different than RACE. If I had a 250 I would get 2 qualifying races Saturday in 300 Prod and Lightweight Production and 2 final races on Sunday.

sARL doesn't have qualifying races.

Ends up the same in the end in my eyes.
 
Considering I am the only person to ride a 400/4 and my teammate rides a 500 twin Liquid cooled...

I talked to Chris, and many of the riders via FB or personal email in the off season before the 2016 race season and it was agreed to change the rule book for 2017 for LWT Production.
LIGHTWEIGHT Production (LTWT)

Any year CBR125,any year Ex250, Yamah R3, KTM390
Any year Hyosung 250GT
Any year CBR250
Any year Kawasaki Ex300
Any year CBR300
380cc Four stroke multi or twin
400cc Four stroke single
500cc Four stroke air cooled (vintage legal)
400cc Two stroke air cooled street based

The new ruling has basically combined the old LWT Sportsman rules with LWT Production.

Which will add VINTAGE (so bikes that would race in P3 or P4 LWT in the VRRA) 550cc Liquid cooled multis and 500cc Liquid cooled Twins (EX500s). But they bikes must fall under vintage LWT rules. So nothing newer than 1989.

For Production racing, a production GPz550 or FZR400/Bandit 400 with stock suspension and brakes...turns the same (ish) lap times as the Modern 300s.

A properly ridden RC390 has no issues keeping pace with an FZR400 (ask BrianP) and a well ridden Ninja 300 has no issues running with a Bandit 400 (ask me or Dave lol...if my bike runs that is)
 
bakaboy said:
I looked it up. Yes sARL ran 2 points scoring races per round for each of the 250 and 300 classes at each of their 4 weekends. So if I had a 250 I could have 4 races per round.

In reality that is no different than RACE. If I had a 250 I would get 2 qualifying races Saturday in 300 Prod and Lightweight Production and 2 final races on Sunday.

sARL doesn't have qualifying races.

Ends up the same in the end in my eyes.
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Good on you for checking that out - I thought it was 4 finals - and if correct that it might help to get a 250 class at RACE. Has anyone heard anything about the 300 rules? EDIT whoops-just re-read about no qualifiers.

I watched some on board vids from the 250/300 races at amp and they looked to have some good grids.
 
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boyoboy said:
Good on you for checking that out - I thought it was 4 finals - and if correct that it might help to get a 250 class at RACE. Has anyone heard anything about the 300 rules? EDIT whoops-just re-read about no qualifiers.

I watched some on board vids from the 250/300 races at amp and they looked to have some good grids.
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I don't think that there is at present enough demand for a 250 and a 300 class at RACE. Especially with the existing Lteweight Production class.

sARL has had large small bike grids. At CSBK Shubie round in 2014 I think the support class race had 27 bikes on the grid after the visiting racers joined.

We were going to join the support race this year but they had a whacky fee structure whereby "non local racer" fees were x2 the local racer fee.

The R3 owned that race.
 
bakaboy said:
There have never been a rule package for 300 Production Class.

The combined rules/classes only had the Lightweight Production and Lightweight Superbike as Ken states and as the RACE and SOAR rulebook shows. Ken didn't see a need for the Lightweight Production class but it was added largely to appease me.

After Round 1 2015 was completed I asked RACE to add another class for the smaller bikes (ie CBR250s). RACE was accommodating and they created another class (as in bring back the 250 Production class from 2014) but in case 300 Machines started showing up it was classified as a 300 Production class. All of the participants (Quintin, JP, Walker, Taylore etc) agreed that the rules would be Production based with limited mods such as we're reflected from the CSBK 2014 CBR250 build limits.

2016 came around and CSBK 300s show up with Ktech forks, QS etc. These mods were outside of the original concept of the 300 Production class but no one discussed it and the 2016 season ran with no defined rules.

2017 may see the grid grow more.

Nothing says you can't run a 320 cc or a single thumper 390.

Having the Lightweight Production is great. The 2016 grid was largely what was imagined when the class was created.

The 2016 300 Production class continued because there was a demand for a 2nd class for 300 or lower bikes and RACE was willing to accommodate with track time.

The small bikes cannot be competitive in the Lightweight Superbike class. Consider that the 300 Production Pro Track record is 1 18. Lightweight Production is 1 16 while the Lightweight Superbike run 1 11 to 1 12.
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in hindsight I should have brought my GS500 out and entered 300 and lwt prod'n - where in the 300 rules would it say I couldn't enter? I wouldn't think the GS would be competitive beyond mid pack. yeehah moving apex. As for the small bikes in lwt superbike not being competitive, well, it would be good to see the small bikes pulling a coup and having their own unofficial race behind the lwt sbk racers! hey-didn't jared run his small bike in lost era 600 at one point?
back when cbr600f3's ruled the 600 class I once raced a 40hp bone stock RG250 in the 600 class. I only bumped up for the extra practice sessions for the most part. During the actual races I would pit b4 the halfway point so I wouldn't mess up the leaders race being lapped.
So next year if you see an old guy with GS500 trying to organize a coup for the small bikes to run an unofficial race behind the lwt sbk guys - you know who it is. lmao all the way around the track. please vote yes for vintage air cooled 500's in 300 if you have the opportunity.
 
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boyoboy said:
in hindsight I should have brought my GS500 out and entered 300 and lwt prod'n - where in the 300 rules would it say I couldn't enter? I wouldn't think the GS would be competitive beyond mid pack. yeehah moving apex. As for the small bikes in lwt superbike not being competitive, well, it would be good to see the small bikes pulling a coup and having their own unofficial race behind the lwt sbk racers! hey-didn't jared run his small bike in lost era 600 at one point?
back when cbr600f3's ruled the 600 class I once raced a 40hp bone stock RG250 in the 600 class. I only bumped up for the extra practice sessions for the most part. During the actual races I would pit b4 the halfway point so I wouldn't mess up the leaders race being lapped.
So next year if you see an old guy with GS500 trying to organize a coup for the small bikes to run an unofficial race behind the lwt sbk guys - you know who it is. lmao all the way around the track.
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As far as entering a 500 in 300, I suppose that would be legal since there are no published rules that prohibit that. It just seems to me that it would go against the spirit of the 300 class. I was under the impression it was anything 300 and below. Including KTMs and R3s.

We tried a waved start with the small bikes and the OBC in the first round this year. It was agreed post race that it was not a good idea to mix small bikes with bigger bikes. I think they lapped us by the third lap? It made for some dicey moments along the back straight for everyone. Others can confirm.
 
JoeyB said:
As far as entering a 500 in 300, I suppose that would be legal since there are no published rules that prohibit that. It just seems to me that it would go against the spirit of the 300 class. I was under the impression it was anything 300 and below. Including KTMs and R3s.

We tried a waved start with the small bikes and the OBC in the first round this year. It was agreed post race that it was not a good idea to mix small bikes with bigger bikes. I think they lapped us by the third lap? It made for some dicey moments along the back straight for everyone. Others can confirm.
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well yes for obc, they can run 1000 lost era bikes along with modern 600's. I wouldn't think the lwt sbk sv650's would be much more than 75hp?
and there only appeared to be a handful of bikes entered. Interestingly, SOAR rules now have lwt sbk capped at 625cc for twins? hmmm wouldn't you like to have a 3rd class to race in?
 
boyoboy said:
wouldn't you like to have a 3rd class to race in?
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Sure, I'd love another class. Maybe I missed it but what would this 3rd class be? Everything up to 650cc?

I'm on a 250 so I fail to see why I'd want to mix it up with 650s. The smaller bikes do practice session with the SVs and they lap us during those sessions.

Now I know that everyone is always saying its the rider not the bike. But come on let's be realistic. If you are a competent racer on a bike with 3x or 2x the HP advantage of smaller bikes (250 (~24hp) and 300 (~37hp) versus 650 (~75hp)) the smaller bike loses. Now I'll just wait for someone to post that someone did some time that is just as fast or faster than a 650 on a 125/250/300. ;) And yes I'm a total noob when it comes to racing and I'm pretty slow.
 
JoeyB said:
Sure, I'd love another class. Maybe I missed it but what would this 3rd class be? Everything up to 650cc?

I'm on a 250 so I fail to see why I'd want to mix it up with 650s. The smaller bikes do practice session with the SVs and they lap us during those sessions.

Now I know that everyone is always saying its the rider not the bike. But come on let's be realistic. If you are a competent racer on a bike with 3x or 2x the HP advantage of smaller bikes (250 (~24hp) and 300 (~37hp) versus 650 (~75hp)) the smaller bike loses. Now I'll just wait for someone to post that someone did some time that is just as fast or faster than a 650 on a 125/250/300. ;) And yes I'm a total noob when it comes to racing and I'm pretty slow.
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hey joey I absolutely agree with you on all your points.

When soar/race came out with their 300 rules (whoops, lwt prod'n rules-I should know this by now-sorry bakaboy). the original small bike rules sounded really good to me- stock handlebars and air box, no emulators etc. Level playing field and a low cost way to race. the air cooled 500 vintage twins (read gs500) were legal. but the lack of a race to bump up to discouraged me. bakaboy was keen and immediately rectified that shortcoming with the addition of 300 prod'n. a good move. then came the csbk ninja 300 series with all its race parts. boo hoo for me and forget about low cost racing.

Today I think a 250 class should be available. true prod'n rules, bone stock except for shock and springs, pipe. no emulators. the 250's are considerably cheaper than the 300's. if you have a modded 250 you go to 300. with r3's and rc390's and cbr350's on the horizon it will only get more expensive. I would truly hate to see 250's fade away. they are less costly than 300's, and if truly production stock, even more so. 250 truly stock prod'n is a class that would encourage new racers. and old alike. people want to be on equal bikes.

You simply want to be on a bike as fast/capable as any other in your class. I wouldn't say slow - I would say you are new. and now faster. but I won't tell you I won a piece of wood the weekend following my school with about 15 on the grid. I did the friday practice too, though.

what i do mean for lwt sbk is a coup. get say 8 or more small bike riders, and without saying anything to anybody - all agree to bump up to lwt sbk. no 2 wave start, a non race within the lwt sbk race, un-official. just for fun. yes the lwt sbk's will lap you...but they aren't 100-150 hp obc bikes.

250's should have their own class. even if the 250 and lwt prod'n were a combined race scored separately. 300 prod'n would have its own race plus the bump up to lwt prod'n. and of course the 250's could bump up to 300. this would allow both the 250's and 300's to have two classes to run in, and RACE would still only have to run two small bike races. it only seems fair. and thats all i have to say about that.
 
boyoboy said:
what i do mean for lwt sbk is a coup. get say 8 or more small bike riders, and without saying anything to anybody - all agree to bump up to lwt sbk. no 2 wave start, a non race within the lwt sbk race, un-official. just for fun. yes the lwt sbk's will lap you...but they aren't 100-150 hp obc bikes.
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Okay, I get what you're saying. There may be a possibility for that next year. From talking with racers at the last round I think two are moving up out of lwt sbk class and one is coming up from lwt prod. So they might be down to 4 riders in that class? Unless I or some others decide to pick up second bikes for next season that meet the lwt sbk rules.
 
JoeyB said:
Okay, I get what you're saying. There may be a possibility for that next year. From talking with racers at the last round I think two are moving up out of lwt sbk class and one is coming up from lwt prod. So they might be down to 4 riders in that class? Unless I or some others decide to pick up second bikes for next season that meet the lwt sbk rules.
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Luc and I are both staying in LWT Production.

I decided to fix the bandit.
 
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