cbr250 engine shuts off randomly when clutch pulled in

iegod said:
I've heard this before but don't really buy it. It's like popping your standard transmission into neutral in a car and coasting to a stop relying entirely on brakes to slow you down. Brakes are cheap. Engine parts are not. The only benefit I can even see to blipping/gearing down in turn is a quick reaction out of a deceleration, but if you know your gears well enough you can easily pop it where you need it and get back at it in the clutch-holding scenario.
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Ummm NO.

The benefit that you state is the "only" one also happens to be an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT one.

A manual-transmission car has an H-pattern shifter that can easily be placed into any gear of my choosing at any time and do so directly without going through any other gears. It is also a synchromesh transmission that can readily be put into a gear while stopped. If I'm coming up to a stop and something happens that warrants accelerating away, regardless of which gear it happens to be in at the moment, I'm one stab of the clutch pedal and one non-ambiguous motion of the shifter away from being in second gear (or whatever other gear is appropriate for the road speed).

A motorcycle has a sequential shifter without synchromesh. It is reluctant to shift while stopped. If you are downshifting with clutch pulled in, there is no feedback concerning which gear you should be in, you could easily have downshifted too far or not far enough. It's far better to do the shifts one at a time with audible and visible (on the tach) feedback concerning whether you are in the correct gear or not.

For what it's worth, decelerating with the clutch engaged (back-driving the engine) does not cause any meaningful amount of engine wear (as long as the engine is below redline). The engine is just spinning, it's not under load. The oil pump is running, the water pump is circulating coolant, a film of oil separates all of the moving parts.
 
OK haven't opined in a while. I've talked to the dealer on the phone, he has to see it to believe it of course. I'm about a week away from my first service already, so I'll show it to them then, assuming I can even do it again. It happened only once this past weekend, and I haven't had time yet to try to replicate the problem on purpose again. If I can't do it, well, I'm going to say it just needed breaking in and everyone who buys a brand new cbr250 be aware... I've been putting a lot of kms on it because I'm just happy as a pig in stink that I have a bike now and just want to ride it in circles around the city. I try to push it a bit when it's safe to do so and am enjoying it.

For those that think working the clutch on the bike is the same as on the car, thanks for trying! Gas clutch shift brake is about all that is the same and you must be from Toronto if you think it's cool to coast in neutral when you are driving. It explains a lot. When I was a kid learning to drive stick my dad told me it was illegal to be in neutral on the road. I doubt that is true, but it forced me to always be in gear anyway. Difference on a bike is there's a friction zone to ease the bike forward, essentially "riding" the clutch that you wouldn't do in a car. But I'm a noob and not a Toronto driver, what do I know?
 
Sounds good. 2up the manager at the dealership, rip it right to redline and when you get to redline in 4th just drop the throttle and pull in the clutch and I'm sure it'll die on ya every time ;)

Just let the clutch out to fire it back up.

-Jamie M.
 
When this problem occurs how do you restart the bike , do you need to pull over and restart , or is it simply a matter of letting the clutch back out ?

Seems that if the bike dies while driving this issue should be brought up to the ministry if Honda doesn't address it with some type of recall or announcement as this is a very serious matter , to say the least .
 
MaxTO said:
When this problem occurs how do you restart the bike , do you need to pull over and restart , or is it simply a matter of letting the clutch back out ?
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Yep, you can give it a bit of throttle and drop the clutch and it'll start back up if still moving fast enough, or while still moving you can hold the clutch in and hit the starter button, but lots of peeps haven't had luck with that unless coming almost to a complete stop :(

-Jamie M.
 
I wonder how many reports Honda has received reguarding this issue ?
I hope people aren't just posting this problem on forums , as this really should be addressed and once again , the ministry should also be looking into this as well .

Is there a best guess as to how many bikes are expereancing this problem ? Is it all of them or 1 in 1000 type of thing ?
 
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I don't pull over to restart. If I'm at some speed, I'll just let out the clutch and bumpstart. From a standstill, I use the starter since I obviously don't have speed to bumpstart.

I think it's an extremely rare problem as I have yet to actually meet another person with the problem, except on forums. Guys in the states and Australia seem to be getting more luck with their dealers. I'm going in next week (leaving the bike while I'm on vacation) so I'll find out what they figure out after I get back.

I've been reluctant to leave my bike recently because I'd rather be riding than taking TTC to work. If they can't figure it out, then the fight is on for sure.

MaxTO said:
When this problem occurs how do you restart the bike , do you need to pull over and restart , or is it simply a matter of letting the clutch back out ?

Seems that if the bike dies while driving this issue should be brought up to the ministry if Honda doesn't address it with some type of recall or announcement as this is a very serious matter , to say the least .
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eljay said:
I think it's an extremely rare problem
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I don't think it's that rare! I think it's mostly just due to peoples different riding styles. Three of my friends recently bought CBR 250's, one was having the problem, two were not. The two that were not were more experienced riders (came from CBR 125), where as the one with the problem was a brand new rider. I asked the two more experienced riders to take it on the highway and take it up to 140km/h at high revs then pull in clutch and let go of the throttle. BOOM, BOTH of their bikes stalled at 140 on the 401!

So, riding with the new rider a few times when it happened I think it's a combination of two things:

1. Holding the clutch in too long when shifting gears, only causes the bike to stall when at high speed.

2. When coming to a stop/red light just holding the clutch in and coasting to a stop. This was when the new rider had the most problems, the experienced riders downshifted and blipped every gear, the new rider just pulled in the clutch and applied the brakes.

After taking apart Yamaha's idle program inside the ECU, I think this should be an easy problem for Honda to fix... i.e. DON'T SHUT OFF THE FUEL INJECTORS ON DECELERATION! retards.

-Jamie M.
 
eljay said:
I don't pull over to restart. If I'm at some speed, I'll just let out the clutch and bumpstart. From a standstill, I use the starter since I obviously don't have speed to bumpstart.

I think it's an extremely rare problem as I have yet to actually meet another person with the problem, except on forums. Guys in the states and Australia seem to be getting more luck with their dealers. I'm going in next week (leaving the bike while I'm on vacation) so I'll find out what they figure out after I get back.

I've been reluctant to leave my bike recently because I'd rather be riding than taking TTC to work. If they can't figure it out, then the fight is on for sure.
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Ok , today I spoke to the guy in charge of the service department at the Durham Honda motercycle dealership . He has never herd of this issue and his dealership has sold 50 cbr250's this year , so far .

I told him how this problem is being reported all over the net and to try doing a google search on CBR 250 stalling and that he would find a lot of info / complaints on this issue .

I told him that , as reported , the problem seems to happen while holding in the clutch and letting of the throttle .

He seems to think that this issue has something to do with the valves and the people not wanting the valves checked / set at the regular service check , do to the cost of the valve inspection / adjustment .

That being said , I would be very interested to hear from anyone having this issue as to if they had their valves checked as per there regular service , or if the passed do to the cost of the procedure ?
 
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toysareforboys said:
I don't think it's that rare! I think it's mostly just due to peoples different riding styles. Three of my friends recently bought CBR 250's, one was having the problem, two were not. The two that were not were more experienced riders (came from CBR 125), where as the one with the problem was a brand new rider. I asked the two more experienced riders to take it on the highway and take it up to 140km/h at high revs then pull in clutch and let go of the throttle. BOOM, BOTH of their bikes stalled at 140 on the 401!

So, riding with the new rider a few times when it happened I think it's a combination of two things:

1. Holding the clutch in too long when shifting gears, only causes the bike to stall when at high speed.

2. When coming to a stop/red light just holding the clutch in and coasting to a stop. This was when the new rider had the most problems, the experienced riders downshifted and blipped every gear, the new rider just pulled in the clutch and applied the brakes.

After taking apart Yamaha's idle program inside the ECU, I think this should be an easy problem for Honda to fix... i.e. DON'T SHUT OFF THE FUEL INJECTORS ON DECELERATION! retards.

-Jamie M.
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I suspect that this issue is present on every single one of those bikes, but to varying degrees because of production tolerances.

MaxTO said:
He seems to think that this issue has something to do with the valves and the people not wanting the valves checked / set at the regular service check , do to the cost of the valve inspection / adjustment .
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Somewhere in one of the huge threads elsewhere on this matter, someone mentioned having the valve clearances set and it made the issue go away.

I agree with Jamie's suspicion of the deceleration fuel cutoff but the proper fix isn't really to eliminate deceleration fuel cut (which is necessary for catalyst protection and emissions purposes). The issue is most likely that the initial shot of fuel when the injectors come back on (as the engine drops to idle) is too stingy, and if the valve clearances are out of spec in a way that leads to a little more air being drawn into the engine under those conditions (most likely, too tight), it goes into lean misfire, and the shut-throttle mapping is such that the engine doesn't recover. The fix is to make the very first shot of fuel when coming out of deceleration fuel cut, just a wee smidge longer.
 
I've finally got the time to leave it at Ready for a few weeks since I'm going on vacation. Fingers crossed. Talked to Honda Canada customer service and gave them my name/vin and described the issue. They didn't know about it, but it's on record now so if I ever get steamrolled at a light my survivors can blame them for it.

I'm assuming my valves were checked at first service that I paid for, but I didn't watch them do it so how can I know?

An FYI for others experiencing this, call Honda Canada at 1-888-946-6329 and tell them you are having the issue. Don't listen to the whole menu, their options don't even work. Just select English then bang the zero until you get through. Make sure they take your name and VIN, get the reps name/extension. It builds a case for Honda to acknowledge there is an issue if more than 1 person bitches.
 
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Got from the dealer on Monday. They could only stall it once when it was wet from cold start. I was on vacation so I don't know what they did, but when I picked it up, it sounds and feels better. They don't admit to doing anything special, but registered it with Honda Canada that I had reported it. Hasn't happened all week, including a couple hours during a downpour. It used to stall at every clutch pull when it was raining. I think they did something (valves/exhaust??) but won't say anything. C'est la vie for now.
 
I'm thinking of picking up at CBR 250 in the spring (used) and would like to know how I can test for this issue. I figure the prospective seller doesn't want me out on the highway pulling in the clutch going 100+ kph (I don't really want to either.)

Can I test for the stalling problem by just keeping the bike in neutral (i.e.: In seller's driveway), revving to near-redline, and then just letting the throttle spring closed?
 
You don't need to get to 100. It happened most often for me going from 4th to 3rd, around 60 or 70ish. It never happened at stand still. Even if you do get to ride it it may not happen... The bikes are all lemons as far as I'm concerned. Check the cbr250.net thread under problems and issues. It seems to be really blowing up these days. If you do buy it and you have a problem, get in honda's face and hard.
 
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