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Careless driving charge questions

ZX600 said:
Police officer should not have questioned him on his state, the charge is based on his statement, this will not hold in court. A ticket is a ticket for the insurance company. Fight it
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I just hired OTT... he said the same thing, he should not have questioned me in that state, and as soon as my statement gets thrown out the officer has nothing as there were no witnesses. My statement is not credible at that point. We shall see, I will let you know what happens.
 
I'm a criminal defence lawyer in Toronto and have been doing this for many years. What I would say is this:

1) Don't take any legal advice from a forum.

2) Hire a lawyer, or at the very least, an experienced paralegal to assist you. Even lawyers hire lawyers. Police officers hire lawyers. Judges hire lawyers. No matter who you are or what you know, you can't effectively represent yourself. Simple as that.

3) It's serious enough of a charge that spending a bit of money now will likely save you a lot more later on (insurance, potential for jail, etc.).

4) Don't assume your version will be readily accepted by the Court. Everyone (police, witnesses, suspects, etc.) all have their accounts of what happens on any given event. People assume that because they are telling the "truth" they will be acquitted. If there was a simple way to determine that, I would be out of work a long time ago. Your "truth" (even if correct) is just one of many versions the Court will consider.

5) Your statement may or may not be admissible depending on complicated legal issues surrounding issues of voluntariness and alleged Charter right violations. There is no simple or definitive answer to this - it is a judicial determination based upon a sophisticated legal analysis borne out in court through evidence. This is one of the many reasons hiring a lawyer/paralegal is a good idea. Also, the remedy follows the violation - so, hypothetically if the Justice of the Peace or Judge were to find that you should have been cautioned and/or read your rights before making a statement, that only (typically) means that your statement is not admissible. Everything else in evidence is still admissible (i.e., the case does not get "tossed" simply because a statement should not have been taken). Again, complicated stuff with no clear answer and lots of nuanced legal issues.

6) Legal assistance may not be as expensive as you think. It could range between hundreds to thousands of dollars but in the end, it is about the value of the service, not the price. If a lawyer saves your driving record and insurance rates at half the price they were going to increase, then its a good value. Either way, most lawyers will meet with you at no charge in an initial consultation (including me) just to give you a sense of what they think of your case and the costs associated with it.

7) Careful with the defence of saying you were under the influence of drugs because that is a criminal charge (driving while impaired by drug) and so that may actually cause more problems. I appreciate you say you were drugged by someone else, but that doesn't necessarily end the issue and exposes you to greater risk.

Also, all your posts here would be admissible in evidence to cross-examine you upon and impeach your credibility with potential inconsistencies and/or lead in chief as a voluntary statement if the officer happens to come across it and they can prove they are your admissions (not very hard to do as a matter of circumstantial evidence). It would be a sad bit of irony if you had your statement of identification of driving excluded only to be proven by your postings on this board. Be careful what you post everyone.

Good luck and see #2 above all.
 
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Great Post Beach. Basically gives the advice I have been providing since page !:

get a good lawyer for this;
the statement may or may not be excluded;
even if the statement is excluded the crown will be relying upon other evidence;
stating you felt you may have been drugged, could lead to other issues;
just because there were no other witnesses, (that your aware of), doesn't mean they don't exist.

If the police could ONLY lay a careless charge if the accused gave a voluntary statement, then there would be almost none of these charges. They rely on many other things. I have laid several careless driving charges, without even asking for a statement, and I can assure I wasn't present when the collision occurred. The charges were laid based on what evidence the investigation revealed, (sometimes including witness statements).

So again, get disclosure, get legal advice on how to proceed. As Beach said don't look at "the price" but rather "the value" of that assistance. This is not something a layman, (no matter how prepared you THINK your prepared), should be handling alone. Remember, even if you have been unlucky and gotten a few tickets and, (won all or most of them), the crown, the JP and the police do this stuff all day everyday so they are MUCH better prepared, and know what will and what won't work.
 
I like the advice in this thread, on this forum that says "don't take advice from a forum".
OP, use your head, filter through the posts. Ignore the ones from jerks like me, and listen to the ones that have solid advice like from Beach & Hedo. Good luck. I do not envy your situation. Please post final outcome only. Do not post anything else in relation to incident.
 
defeater905 said:
This is why you don't talk to the cops. You think it'd be a good idea to explain things to them, but they aren't going to help you...only use that info to prosecute you.
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This. NEVER talk to police. While they are befriending you they are sneakily recording information to fry you.
 
dinosaurbeach said:
I'm a criminal defence lawyer in Toronto and have been doing this for many years. What I would say is this:

1) Don't take any legal advice from a forum.

2) Hire a lawyer, or at the very least, an experienced paralegal to assist you. Even lawyers hire lawyers. Police officers hire lawyers. Judges hire lawyers. No matter who you are or what you know, you can't effectively represent yourself. Simple as that.

3) It's serious enough of a charge that spending a bit of money now will likely save you a lot more later on (insurance, potential for jail, etc.).

4) Don't assume your version will be readily accepted by the Court. Everyone (police, witnesses, suspects, etc.) all have their accounts of what happens on any given event. People assume that because they are telling the "truth" they will be acquitted. If there was a simple way to determine that, I would be out of work a long time ago. Your "truth" (even if correct) is just one of many versions the Court will consider.

5) Your statement may or may not be admissible depending on complicated legal issues surrounding issues of voluntariness and alleged Charter right violations. There is no simple or definitive answer to this - it is a judicial determination based upon a sophisticated legal analysis borne out in court through evidence. This is one of the many reasons hiring a lawyer/paralegal is a good idea. Also, the remedy follows the violation - so, hypothetically if the Justice of the Peace or Judge were to find that you should have been cautioned and/or read your rights before making a statement, that only (typically) means that your statement is not admissible. Everything else in evidence is still admissible (i.e., the case does not get "tossed" simply because a statement should not have been taken). Again, complicated stuff with no clear answer and lots of nuanced legal issues.

6) Legal assistance may not be as expensive as you think. It could range between hundreds to thousands of dollars but in the end, it is about the value of the service, not the price. If a lawyer saves your driving record and insurance rates at half the price they were going to increase, then its a good value. Either way, most lawyers will meet with you at no charge in an initial consultation (including me) just to give you a sense of what they think of your case and the costs associated with it.

7) Careful with the defence of saying you were under the influence of drugs because that is a criminal charge (driving while impaired by drug) and so that may actually cause more problems. I appreciate you say you were drugged by someone else, but that doesn't necessarily end the issue and exposes you to greater risk.

Also, all your posts here would be admissible in evidence to cross-examine you upon and impeach your credibility with potential inconsistencies and/or lead in chief as a voluntary statement if the officer happens to come across it and they can prove they are your admissions (not very hard to do as a matter of circumstantial evidence). It would be a sad bit of irony if you had your statement of identification of driving excluded only to be proven by your postings on this board. Be careful what you post everyone.

Good luck and see #2 above all.
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Holy ****, this might be the most useful law related post in GTAM's history.
 
Hey Beach great post and very much appreciated!! Like I said I have hired someone, its affordable to me and checked the track record and am satisfied with it. I understand there is more to my statement and there are other rights, so I am prepared for that. Will leave it up to my guy to figure out what he thinks is the best plan of action going forward.
I also realize about stuff here being used as well as not using the drug thing as a plea.. I would never and I have zero evidence I was anyways. Most of my memory loss I am sure was from the impact, so we will see.

Again I really appreciate the advice and like somebody else stating, one of the better posts in this section.
 
ajaxguy said:
Hey Beach great post and very much appreciated!! Like I said I have hired someone, its affordable to me and checked the track record and am satisfied with it. I understand there is more to my statement and there are other rights, so I am prepared for that. Will leave it up to my guy to figure out what he thinks is the best plan of action going forward.
I also realize about stuff here being used as well as not using the drug thing as a plea.. I would never and I have zero evidence I was anyways. Most of my memory loss I am sure was from the impact, so we will see.

Again I really appreciate the advice and like somebody else stating, one of the better posts in this section.
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My pleasure. I hope it turns out well for you.
 
yeah keep us posted. I would like to see how this turns out. From the courts, to the police and lastly your final outcome; ie ticket or none. Wish you all the best.
 
Akad3m1kz said:
yeah keep us posted. I would like to see how this turns out. From the courts, to the police and lastly your final outcome; ie ticket or none. Wish you all the best.
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I appreciate that and I will do!
 
Have not gone to trial yet but the prosecutor has offered this Change Lane Not In Safety HTA 142(1) in lieu of the careless.. what should I think of this? Obviously better, but if we think we have a chance to get it dropped, take the a shot?
 
ajaxguy said:
Have not gone to trial yet but the prosecutor has offered this Change Lane Not In Safety HTA 142(1) in lieu of the careless.. what should I think of this? Obviously better, but if we think we have a chance to get it dropped, take the a shot?
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I personally would take that and call it a day. I believe that's definitely not as serious as careless driving.
 
kiwi said:
I personally would take that and call it a day. I believe that's definitely not as serious as careless driving.
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The thing is I paid for them to actually try and get me off... I could have gotten that myself. Its still 2 points and a fine as well as 6 years on the record which kills me.
 
Akad3m1kz said:
3 years for convictions and I'm not sure if that's a major but if it is get it dropped!
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He said 6 years the conviction is on his record, (for insurance purposes), not on drivers record. The offered charge is considered, (by insurance) as a minor conviction.

OP that is what many of the "ticket fighters" do they merely get you a reduced charge not actually charges dropped. As you said you can normally get the same result yourself.
 
hedo2002 said:
He said 6 years the conviction is on his record, (for insurance purposes), not on drivers record. The offered charge is considered, (by insurance) as a minor conviction.
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Demerit points with the Ministry, 2 years from date of offence. For the insurance record, 3 years from date of conviction for rating purposes assuming conviction on the lesser minor charge, but up to 6 years from date of conviction if convicted for careless which is considered a major conviction. For the at-fault collision record (and not the ticket conviction itself), 6 years for rating purposes.
 
Ok so I went to court today... and I am super pumped!!! Charge was withdrawn! I was ready to take a plea which was 2 points for improper lane, so Ted from OTT was ready to go with it, but went in for me, came out 10 mins later, and said there was a scheduling issue, so he said he wanted a trial, they couldnt as the officer was not present, so I walked out with no charge at all!

It's a good day.
 
Could not have gotten a better outcome. Good to hear. congrats.

ajaxguy said:
Ok so I went to court today... and I am super pumped!!! Charge was withdrawn! I was ready to take a plea which was 2 points for improper lane, so Ted from OTT was ready to go with it, but went in for me, came out 10 mins later, and said there was a scheduling issue, so he said he wanted a trial, they couldnt as the officer was not present, so I walked out with no charge at all!

It's a good day.
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