Careless Driving Charge Dropped! | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Careless Driving Charge Dropped!

No, filtering is not legal.

As for the OP's original careless driving charge on the highway, the cop screwed up. The cop should have charged him with HTA172 for frequent lane changes in close proximity to other traffic in order to progress through traffic at a markedly greater speed than that other traffic. Maybe next time will be the charm though.

"Markedly" = what speed differential? 5kph?

"should have charged me with" or "could have..."? Me thinks you're a supporter of the vague and sweeping powers of 172?

How many lane changes would trigger that law? What speed differential? I would be interested to know if you would welcome that charge if it was levied onto you.
 
I think you missed the part where it says the vehicle you are passing is turning left. Subsection a and b or c have to be met, not just b. Does not explicitly say a or b or c does it?

Now you have come to a very deilcate and interesting point!!! I'm glad you caught it!!!

Is it the case that all 3 subsections have to apply? After all they are using semicolons to seperate a) from b) and c). However if this is the case, than any and all undertaking becomes illegal!!! One can never pass to the right of another vehicle, lanes permitting or or width permitting unless all 3 sub-sections are in effect!!!

This is a very delicate matter I find!

Your thoughts? If one cannot pass to the right of a vehicle unless all subsections here are in play, how can one ever pass to the right of another vehicle? I'm curious how you intepret that.

Note that this clause referes to ALL passing to the right of other vehicles, and if you argue that the use of the semicolon means sub sections a) and b) must both be in effect, than no vehicle can pass in the right lane of traffic ever!

So next time you're on the highway and the fast lane is stopped but the middle and right lanes are moving, this is breaking the law! You must come to a full stop and not pass any cars to your left because they are in fact NOT turning or signalling they intend to turn left.

Again we come to the vague and difficult to interpret HTA. This one issue of the semicolon between subsection a) and b) either means filtering is allowed, or all "undertaking" is illegal. Either way the HTA does not explicitly address these two acts.

In the UK for example, "undertaking" (passing in the designated slow lane) is explicitly illegal, while "filtering" is legal. It was a grey area up until 2004 or 2005 I believe and then made legal due to their recognition that a) it was widely practiced, b) vague as addressed in their laws, c) safe and d) good for congestion and polution as well as an enticement to sway drivers away from cars and toward scooter transport.

And for the record, just because a law is not enforced doesn't mean it is legal, but it is one massive step toward legalizing it.

If all of you resist filtering so heavily and create a culture of congestion, filtering will never be allowed. It's a 2 pronged attack. One is to argue it's case, the other is to have it accepted as common culture even if it is illegal. 3 cases in point would be weed, homosexuality, and even alcohol in the US (prohibition).
 
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Actually I have a question...Let's say someone does have a trial with regards to filtering and argues it successfully and it was deemed safe and permissable....when can it be cited as precedent?

Alawya v Officer Jenkins? Hahaha

That leads me to my second worry. Could a Justice forsee a worrying precedent for the same reason as above and rule against me to avoid such a can of worms? Because "safe" in 154 is subjective, ultimately they may feel my action was dangerous from their point of view. Certainly there are some, shall we say, more "literal and reserved" members of this forum who, despite riding, would also slam me with a 154 conviction in this case!
 
Many motorcyclists, like their cage driving counterparts have the attention span of a gnat.
I've had bikes split or filter into the pedestrian part of the intersection in such a way that you could not manouveur around them, and then they absolutely had to take a call. Thanks a bunch! I like first come first served. When I'm at the front of an intersection I try to clear it for the next person as rapidly as possible, bike or cage.
 
Many motorcyclists, like their cage driving counterparts have the attention span of a gnat.
I've had bikes split or filter into the pedestrian part of the intersection in such a way that you could not manouveur around them, and then they absolutely had to take a call. Thanks a bunch! I like first come first served. When I'm at the front of an intersection I try to clear it for the next person as rapidly as possible, bike or cage.

Personally when I filter to the front, I accelerate pretty hard once the light turns green. I make an effort to prove to them that I did not take up their hard earned potential space. I get out of their way and usually put 100m between us, as they accelerate more slowly. This way they are still at the "front of the pack" while I was never a factor in their commute. I realize that if I "bud" to the front of the line and then linger and accelerate slowly I have impacted that car and it's commute, that I have taken up their rightful place or space.

I also like filtering in the rain and cold conditions, so that a car may see the advantages / disadvantages or nomenclature of the 2 modes of transport. I give up comfort and luxury, for a faster more spirited commute, and more dangerous commute. It's a trade off. If they want to be ****** off that I got to the front of the line, well hey, trade in your comfy leather interior heated bucket seat SUV and come shivver in 2C and warm your fingers on the engine like me (at the front of the line). Hell it's even cheaper...swap that car for a bike and pocket some cash!

It makes no sense for cages to get all vexed and break the law (explicitly) by attempting to harm us or illegally open the door to block us.

A cop once told me that an angry car driver might open their door (which is explicitly illegal in the HTA) and that's why it is unsafe.

Yeah and it would be illegal for me to go out at night and get something from the store cause an angry criminal might rob me! Great attitude cop!

Anyways, I for one don't feel an angry cager has rights over me because they were there first. Fact is I'm not taking their space...they are still in it! And if first come first serve were a universal rule, then we could never pass anyone...for they were "ahead of us" all be it slightly to the side as well.

If I see two cashiers, both open, and only 1 huge line and no one is willing or able to go to the second open cashier, and I make my way there and find it is open and available, hell I GOT THERE FIRST! Everyone has the chance to filter if they have a smaller vehicle, I'm not stopping the cage. I'm just going to the front with the "open available cashier" no one else seems able to use...that's all.

Anyways, like I said, I am sensitive to the plight of the frustrated caged commuter and I try not to have them feel I impeded them.

As a side note, in the UK they created bike lanes, but at the head of the traffic at the intersection they created a bike collections spot in front of all the traffic. So bikes would filter down the side, then spread out in front of all the cars. The light would turn green and everyone from Lance Armstrong to granma would peddle in front of all lanes of traffic. It would usually take about 100m for the bikes to file back into single file, thus holding up aaaaaaaaaaaaaall of traffic!!! This was an absolute insane policy of an overly "green" mayor of London hell bent on making it difficult for cars.

http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=5...oid=GWPC4-dVrXRi0lEBDmUQEQ&cbp=12,207.13,,0,0

I certainly don't advocate filtering if you're just gonna put around and block traffic behind you!
 
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Since this thread has totally gone down the filtering path, it makes sense to revert back to an old filtering thread where myself and a couple others argued the point to death.

I'll post the outcome of my trial there (several months from now) to update on that issue. Thanks for the debate folks...it helps with my case, and maybe helps for other riders' riding!

http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforum/showthread.php?120337-is-it-legal-to-filter-to-traffic
 
Hello alaywa :

Have been following the comments on 'Lane Splitting' and 'Filtering'. I always filter, but never split. Am very interested in the results of your court session. Sooner or later, I will be in your situation. Would even consider attending, to get the names and hear the comments, of the JP and the PA. When and where are your going to court? If I am unable to attend, would you please post their names, when you post their decision? Please feel free to call me if I can be of assistance in helping you prepare your case. I am not a lawyer.

Earl White
Toronto
Res : 416-698-5778
Cell : 416-568-0546
 
Hello alaywa :

Have been following the comments on 'Lane Splitting' and 'Filtering'. I always filter, but never split. Am very interested in the results of your court session. Sooner or later, I will be in your situation. Would even consider attending, to get the names and hear the comments, of the JP and the PA. When and where are your going to court? If I am unable to attend, would you please post their names, when you post their decision? Please feel free to call me if I can be of assistance in helping you prepare your case. I am not a lawyer.

Earl White
Toronto
Res : 416-698-5778
Cell : 416-568-0546

No probs...and I appreciate the support. I just got the ticket last tuesday so it is a long way off, but I'll keep you informed.
 
I could be wrong, but I don't think a JP could set a legal precedent, because they aren't actually a judge. I think if you lost and it went to appeals court, then it might.

As for passing on the right on the highway, I can't remember which one, but I do remember it saying that you can undertake if done carefully. The exact wording escapes my mind. What was said earlier I also believe is true, in that all those criteria need to be met a, b, and c.... not just one of them.

Like I said before, you might get some leverage out of the "stopped" vehicle laws.... what is the difference between stopped and parked, because it seems like the law just lumps them all together. If that is the case, then why can't one share a lane with a stopped vehicle?

Another thing that would be interesting to know is that if you can't undertake a stopped vehicle, then technically you can't squeeze past on the right even if there is a ton of room and turn right at a set of lights.
 
Further azz covering:

Pedestrian crossover, duties of driver
<!-- TRANSIT - HYPERLINK --><!-- .http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/french/elaws_statutes_90h08_f.htm#s140s1. -->140.<!-- TRANSIT - HYPERLINK --><!-- .http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/french/elaws_statutes_90h08_f.htm#s140s1. --> (1) Subject to subsection (2), when a pedestrian or a person in a wheelchair crossing a roadway within a pedestrian crossover,
(a) is upon the half of the roadway upon which a vehicle or street car is travelling; or
(b) is upon half of the roadway and is approaching the other half of the roadway on which a vehicle or street car is approaching so closely to the pedestrian crossover as to endanger him or her,
the driver of the vehicle or street car shall yield the right of way to the pedestrian or a person in a wheelchair by slowing down or stopping if necessary. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 140 (1).
Where vehicle stopped at pedestrian crossover
<!-- TRANSIT - HYPERLINK --><!-- .http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/french/elaws_statutes_90h08_f.htm#s140s2. -->(2) When a vehicle or street car is stopped at a pedestrian crossover, the driver of any other vehicle or street car overtaking the stopped vehicle or street car shall bring the vehicle or street car to a full stop before entering the crossover and shall yield the right of way to a pedestrian or a person in a wheelchair,
(a) who is within the crossover upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle or street car is stopped; or
(b) who is within the crossover and is approaching the half of the roadway from the other half of the roadway so closely to the vehicle or street car that he or she is in danger if the vehicle or street car were to proceed. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 140 (2).
Passing moving vehicles within 30 metres of pedestrian crossover
<!-- TRANSIT - HYPERLINK --><!-- .http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/french/elaws_statutes_90h08_f.htm#s140s3. -->(3) When a vehicle or street car is approaching a pedestrian crossover and is within 30 metres thereof, the driver of any other vehicle or street car approaching from the rear shall not allow the front extremity of his or her vehicle or streetcar to pass beyond the front extremity of the other vehicle or street car. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 140 (3).


The subsection in red makes no sense to me in understanding how this is applied! Is this applied to the approaching lead vehicle or any approaching vehicle?!?! If this applies to any approaching vehicle this essentially means all cars must not pass any other cars' bumper within 30 m of an intersection, irregradless of lane, intention to turn or position, like they are under some sort of pace car restriction! No one follows this law (if I am reading it correctly)!!!

Anyone have a view on this law?

However the way I see it, it doesn't apply to filtering because in section 2) it addresses approaching a STOPPED vehicle at a crossover, and only states the approaching vehicle (the filtering bike in my case) must simply come to a stop before the cross over. It doesn't disallow passing of other STOPPED vehicles before the cross over (intersection).

However this also lends weight to my belief that "lane splitting" is distinctly different from "filtering" as lane splitting (or rather passing another moving vehicle) cannot be done within 30 meters of an intersection (as stated by law here), due to the fact that there is a distinction between stopped and moving vehicles in proximity to an intersection.
 
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I could be wrong, but I don't think a JP could set a legal precedent, because they aren't actually a judge. I think if you lost and it went to appeals court, then it might.

As for passing on the right on the highway, I can't remember which one, but I do remember it saying that you can undertake if done carefully. The exact wording escapes my mind. What was said earlier I also believe is true, in that all those criteria need to be met a, b, and c.... not just one of them.

I'm kean to find clarity on this issue because if it isn't stated somewhere else in the HTA that undertaking is an exception to 150 (1) (a;b; or c), then the case could be made that the semicolons in use here DO NOT IMPLY sub sectionS a and b must me met together to allow a pass on the right hand side. Otherwise if there is no other allowance to pass on the right (found in the HTA), then undertaking all together is illegal.

Where I reference 140 (3) above, it is not clear whether passing of stopped vehicles in proximity to a pedestrian cross-over is allowed on the right....again it IS allowed, but is vague as to which side the pass is allowed on!!!

Like I said before, you might get some leverage out of the "stopped" vehicle laws.... what is the difference between stopped and parked, because it seems like the law just lumps them all together. If that is the case, then why can't one share a lane with a stopped vehicle?

In 140 (3) I have found leverage on the difference and distinction between stopped and moving vehicles within a 30m proximity of a pedestrian crossing. So there is definitely more support for filtering there...assuming the lane sharing issue is permitted! As I state, I believe that lane sharing is permitted (on the right side) in 150 (1)(b) (IF IT CAN BE PROPERLY ASSUMED THAT SUBSECTION B) CAN BE APPLIED INDEPENDENT OF A)). I also find lane sharing permitted on the left side in multiple examples in the HTA, so I have no problem filtering on the left side of a lane!

Another thing that would be interesting to know is that if you can't undertake a stopped vehicle, then technically you can't squeeze past on the right even if there is a ton of room and turn right at a set of lights.

Yes, I agree...if undertaking is not allowed in the HTA (and it seems to all hinge on the interpretation of the semicolon in 150 (1) between subsection a) and b)) then you may pass a stopped vehicle to the left up to, but not beyond the pedestrian crossing, but not to the right of the stopped vehicle.

*** On a technicallity then, you could filter or share a lane on the left most side of any amount of lane traffic if filtering through stopped traffic (approaching an intersection) and if there is sufficient width available. -- Even if 150(1) a) + b) is a rule!!!! -- in the event "undertaking" is actually illegal in the HTA


On to the issue of the semicolon (now I realize it is nitpicking but that's what it has come to and damn it I'll get down to this in my trial if it comes to it!)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semicolon

sem·i·co·lon
<SUP></SUP>  <!-- google_ad_section_start(weight=ignore) --><SCRIPT language=javascript>AC_FL_RunContent = 0;</SCRIPT><SCRIPT type=text/javascript>var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "17", "15", "<img src=\"http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif\" border=\"0\" alt=\"semicolon pronunciation\" />", "6");interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high");interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t");interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsp.dictionary.com%2Fdictstatic%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FS03%2FS0316800.mp3&clkLogProxyUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fwhatzup.html&t=a&d=d&s=di&c=a&ti=1&ai=51359&l=dir&o=0&sv=00000000&ip=18f6430c&u=audio"); interfaceflash.addParam('wmode','transparent');interfaceflash.write();</SCRIPT><OBJECT class=inlineimg id=speaker title="Very Happy" codeBase=codebase= height=15 alt="" width=17 data=data:application/x-oleobject;base64,IGkzJfkDzxGP0ACqAGhvEzwhRE9DVFlQRSBIVE1MIFBVQkxJQyAiLS8vVzNDLy9EVEQgSFRNTCA0LjAgVHJhbnNpdGlvbmFsLy9FTiI+DQo8SFRNTD48SEVBRD4NCjxNRVRBIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9Q29udGVudC1UeXBlIGNvbnRlbnQ9InRleHQvaHRtbDsgY2hhcnNldD13aW5kb3dzLTEyNTIiPjwvSEVBRD4NCjxCT0RZPg0KPFA+Jm5ic3A7PC9QPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= align=textTop border=0 classid="clsid:D</OBJECT><NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> /ˈsɛm
thinsp.png
ɪˌkoʊ
thinsp.png
lən
/ Show Spelled[sem-i-koh-luh
thinsp.png
n] Show IPA<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
–noun the punctuation mark (;) used to indicate a major division in a sentence where a more distinct separation is felt between clauses or items on a list than is indicated by a comma, as between the two clauses of a compound sentence.

so they are linked somehow but not a strict "AND" relationship as a comma would imply

Cultural Dictionary

semicolon definition


A punctuation mark (;) used to join two independent clauses in a sentence. The semicolon shows that the ideas in the two clauses are related: “Jack really didn't mind being left without a car; he had the house to himself.”



The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

note in this case the definition of semicolon indicating 2 independent but related clauses. I have not yet found a definition of a semi colon stating it means a strict AND relationship. It merely means these 2 sentences are independent but somehow related, and not as related and fluid as a comma would call for.

As far as I'm concerned (IMO) "undertaking" and sharing a lane to the right of a vehicle in a "multi-line" situation with sufficient width IS LEGAL in the HTA and as such so is filtering with reference to the other clauses in the HTA we hammered out!
 
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I do believe, sirs, that I have nailed it!

IMO filtering IS LEGAL, if and only if it can be done "safely".

Now there may still be those that disagree, perhaps in my understanding of the HTA, or in the subjective term "safe" as it applies to each and every example of filtering, but I am now more confident than ever about my case for filtering and look forward to my trial.

I keep these clauses in my phone, and have used them once before when I was pulled over for filtering (to positive effect), but I always had a lingering doubt I may have missed something, like the semicolon nuance for example. But now I feel even better about this issue. Sure it's time consuming to argue this out once a month with a cop (about 20 minutes) who doesn't really fully understand the entire HTA (and believe me I don't know the rest of the HTA as well as I know the clauses as pertaining to filtering!!!), but when it comes to this issue, I feel better about dealing with others who would be upset with me, or even dissagree with me on the road especially.

I for one will continue to filter and defend my position until I have been either so bullied into fearing for the loss of my driving priveledge or proven wrong.

See y'all at the front of the line! Might also be fun to see some of you at my trial too!!! (date TBC).



One last note.....according to 140 (3) one cannot pass an approaching vehicle, 30 m in proximity, of a pedestrian crossing....so make damned sure if you are going to filter, the cars you pass are stopped! Otherwise you can be charged with breach of 140 (3)...safe or not safe...there is a clear distinction between stopped and moving traffic.

In my case I don't think 154 can stick to me.

Those who argue 172 (for filtering), well...what can I say?!? Power trip?
 
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"Vehicles" Includes motorcycles. Do a search on the word "motorcycle" in the HTA and you will find it is only used once when the term "vehicle" is defined and stated it will henceforth be used to refer to such vehicles as scooters and motorcycles from that point forward. This is a common misunderstanding in the HTA and shared by the cop. If a car and a motorbike are next to each other, in this instance there IS sufficient width for 2 "vehicles".

This is yet another case of the HTA being rather vague and thus making my point of sharing a lane if sufficient width applies making a case for filtering. Like I said, I'm treading in grey area here.

You would be hosed by the conditions of such statutes; ie. are any of the vehicles not turning? As this is the intent of the law, you would likely lose in court.
 
You would be hosed by the conditions of such statutes; ie. are any of the vehicles not turning? As this is the intent of the law, you would likely lose in court.

Ah Rob, we are back at it again! Well when it comes to this issue....it's 154 that is being charged against me and at that the issue of "safety" will be the point of contention, not turning.

With respect to turning I dissagree with you there as I see 150 (1) (b) is actually indepedent of (a). Sub-section a) being the holder of the turning condition and "spirit" you suggest. While b) does not hold the same "spirit", rather it holds the "spirit" of multiple "lines" and I stress, not "lanes"! "Lines" is a different term altogether as it calls for a judgement on "sufficient width for multiple lines" not a rigid understanding of defined "lanes" as established by a municipality in fixed paint and not open to judgment. This is IMO the "spirit" of 150 (1) (b) which allows for "filtering".
 
Yup, we're going to butt heads over this repeatedly, because I'm firmly convinced that you're wrong. What you suggest would set precedent and it's not the sort of precedent that they would want set, as (to me at least) filtering and splitting are clearly against the intent of the law.
 
Yup, we're going to butt heads over this repeatedly, because I'm firmly convinced that you're wrong. What you suggest would set precedent and it's not the sort of precedent that they would want set, as (to me at least) filtering and splitting are clearly against the intent of the law.

Well that is why I posed the precedent question earlier. Is trial with a JoP a precendent setting case? If so then I could get a hard azz that views the entire "spirit / intend of the (entire HTA) law" is applicable, wider than the scope of my 154 charge. In which case they could make an example of me just to nip any ambitious filterer in the bud who runs back to report it on the GTA forum and share with all his filthy filtering buddies.

Or could this be a rinky dink trial restricted to the cop's application of 154 and the JoP quashes it cause it is baseless, a waste of time and quite safe, with no fear of this setting a filtering precedent, allowing the JoP and Rob to sleep at night?

PS I agree with you on lane splitting. I can't justify it based on the HTA, and as I have stated I feel the argument is too weak up against a cop's and JoP's understanding of "safety". It is simply pushing local cultural norms too far.
Filtering on the other hand, I have already found is not pushing either the HTA beyond it's spirit, or cultural norms, or understandings of "safety", as I stated many times....cops have let me go a few times now for filtering (once I explain myself), and in this last instance I noticed a clear softening of the cop's view on filtering when I explained myself. Unfortunately this was after he wrote the ticket in this case. Normally I get to explain myself before they go back to the cruiser.

But you are not alone, there are many who share your view too. You certainly have a middle ground view as I have noticed on older comments you made on a 172 "driving too close" charge another forum member posted for splitting on the DVP. Oddly you offered advice on how he could defend himself....and for lane splitting!
 
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Well I think that a 'racing' charge, for lane splitting, is ridiculous overkill. Actually I think that damned near ANY charge under 172 is ridiculous. You also have a right to defend yourself, against any charge.

It's unlikely that it would set precedent with a JP hearing it, but it would start the ball rolling.
 
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Personally when I filter to the front, I accelerate pretty hard once the light turns green.

Be careful, you do know you can be charged for that as well, under the sweeping racing law .... LOL
 
the charge for the highway looks like the cop just wanted to charge you with something that puts you in the system...when i got pulled over a while back, a cop mentioned a previous ticket that i had received...the only problem was that that ticket was tossed out in court, i mentioned that to the cop and then we got into an argument on the side of the road...it pisses me off when they do this, it's like treating you as guilty for something you have been accused of then cleared...so sometimes they just wanna waste your time and put you in the system...they know it'll cost you, with lawyers, time off work, getting to the court and stress...

as for filtering through traffic, you do it around here only if you are ready to deal with the popo, it's essentially illegal...as for whether or not it should be legal, well, i wouldn't mind it, but riding here is seasonal, so for 6 months out of the year where 99% of the people ride, drivers are only used to seeing us half the time...so having us filter through traffic is something that drivers are not used to...tough to introduce that one...
 

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