Can't fix stupid

1 degree as a percentage of an average daily temperature is very large and 1 degree above freezing represents melting glaciers and ice caps.

This is a GLOBAL average of an entire climate system. You can't just plop that 1 degree anywhere you like on a map and say "Here it is!! OHHH THE MELTING!!!" And even if I was inclined to by into alarmist talk, that graph only strengthens my entire argument here, which is; The link to CO2 triggered global warming is failing to prove itself true

lets look at a graph of CO2 concentration from a similar time period

co2-emissions-1751-2010.png


See that hockey stick we all remember from predictive temperature graphs? You know the ones that tied CO2 to atmospheric temperature increases.

Now let's look at the other again....

1309_Temp_anomaly.jpg



Notice the relatively stable trend? Notice that sudden spike is missing? So tell me, if CO2 is in fact the mechanism for climate change (warming in particular) why don't we see that correlation anymore? Could it be something else is driving the change? Like it has for millions of years before we came along (see paleoclimatology). Like the big *** ball of fire in the sky maybe? Could it be?





SOOOO.... Elephant in the room; why carbon reduction again?
 
Correlation? You mean like this graph?

Document

Exactly! Notice the CO2 concentration overtaking the temperature in the last oh 60 years.... uncanny; now go watch the video. You've got Canadian scientist employed at Leading Canadian Universities, 2 of which are professors of earth studies and teach climate and another who was part of the IPCC process for years.. and they're not siding with you

So again... why carbon reduction?

Edit: this graph also stops over 10 years ago, and the warming has slowed quite a bit over the last decade. The CO2 emissions have grown exponentially.. what I've said would be even more relevant in an up to date graph
 
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Edit: this graph also stops over 10 years ago, and the warming has slowed quite a bit over the last decade. The CO2 emissions have grown exponentially.. what I've said would be even more relevant in an up to date graph

http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/06/29/human_cause-3/
https://nicholas.duke.edu/people/faculty/chameides

last_400000_years.png

Data Sources for CO2: Vostok ice core, Law Dome ice core, and Mauna Loa air samples.

Data Source for Temperature: Vostok ice core.



last_1000_years.png


Data Sources for CO2: Law Dome ice core and Mauna Loa air samples.

Data Source for Temperature: NOAA.


For those who are able to read copious amounts of materials, https://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/SYR_AR5_FINAL_full_wcover.pdf
 
Exactly! Notice the CO2 concentration overtaking the temperature in the last oh 60 years.... uncanny; now go watch the video. You've got Canadian scientist employed at Leading Canadian Universities, 2 of which are professors of earth studies and teach climate and another who was part of the IPCC process for years.. and they're not siding with you

So again... why carbon reduction?

Edit: this graph also stops over 10 years ago, and the warming has slowed quite a bit over the last decade. The CO2 emissions have grown exponentially.. what I've said would be even more relevant in an up to date graph

http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/06/29/human_cause-3/
https://nicholas.duke.edu/people/faculty/chameides

last_400000_years.png

Data Sources for CO2: Vostok ice core, Law Dome ice core, and Mauna Loa air samples.

Data Source for Temperature: Vostok ice core.



last_1000_years.png


Data Sources for CO2: Law Dome ice core and Mauna Loa air samples.

Data Source for Temperature: NOAA.


For those who are able to read copious amounts of materials, https://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/SYR_AR5_FINAL_full_wcover.pdf

Reminds me of the good old days with goldwinger and our building code discussion lmfao.
 
If we all depend on electricity, where is it going to come from? Nuclear? We'd be glowing in the dark in the next 20 yrs. Wind also is having problems, people protesting it makes them sick . Oh yeah we could just import electricity & claim our power stations are 99% efficient.
 
http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/06/29/human_cause-3/
https://nicholas.duke.edu/people/faculty/chameides


Data Sources for CO2: Vostok ice core, Law Dome ice core, and Mauna Loa air samples.

Data Source for Temperature: Vostok ice core.


Data Sources for CO2: Law Dome ice core and Mauna Loa air samples.

Data Source for Temperature: NOAA.


For those who are able to read copious amounts of materials, https://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/SYR_AR5_FINAL_full_wcover.pdf

You're increasing the time scale an thus reducing the resolution; but since you posted it, much of the work in Paleoclimtology over the past few years has show CO2 actually lags behind temperature change. it's more likely reactionary than it is a forcing mechanism

Widen that out for some better resolution; inconvenient for your argument, but truth
(from the sameVostok ice core record)
vostok_150001.png

http://euanmearns.com/the-vostok-ice-core-temperature-co2-and-ch4/


Watched the video yet? Didn't think so. But keep posting links to government based reports who final drafts are edited by a panel of bureaucrats and pretend there's no agenda. I'll stick with the findings of scientist interested in the truth. Particularly local ones.

Oh yeah; notice the cycle? Sorry but you can't blame the last 400000 years of climate change on our energy consumption. Reality is we contribute just 3.5% of all CO2 emissions per year, the rest comes from natural sources. CO2 constitutes only 0.04% of the atmosphere @ 400ppm. So that's 3.5% of 0.04%. By my math that's 0.000014% of all atmospheric gases that we're adding. Forgive me for being skeptical. On a side, ask yourself why we never hear CO2 consecrations represented in a percent; my guess is bigger numbers are scarier.

If we all depend on electricity, where is it going to come from? Nuclear? We'd be glowing in the dark in the next 20 yrs. Wind also is having problems, people protesting it makes them sick . Oh yeah we could just import electricity & claim our power stations are 99% efficient.

Nuclear is honestly the best possible scenario. France would be the leading example.
 
I think I should also be very clear. Im not anti environment. I don't think we should burn coal without scrubbers or run cars without converters. These devises have made a huge difference in air quality and the sulfur dioxides and nitric oxides to name a couple, along with particulate matter and VOC's were all real heath and environment issues, and I'm glad we've done something about it.

CO2 on the other hand is not; environmetalism has been hijacked. (the words of Patrick Moore, Co-founder of Greenpeace)
 
Nuclear is honestly the best possible scenario. France would be the leading example.

The key is NOT to rely on one source of energy. That will lead to problems. Nuclear is clean in terms of air quality but the nuclear waste is not. How do you get rid of radioactive waste that have a half life of a million years?

Have different sources of energy that is the logical thing to do. But politics ain't logic
 
I did, not because I wanted to but because teachers have generally voted for the liberals and my wife is a teacher. I will never ... ever again.
Why is it that I have yet to meet one person that will admit they voted for Wynn?

True story, rare time I took the TTC subway yesterday and I said to the lady in the booth, hey, don't take this the wrong way but you look like you might be related to KW. She got ******, I said remember I said don't take this the wrong way, lol. She said she gets it all the time. I said maybe it's the hair style.
She says god I can't stand that woman. I said I hear you, got to go.

Who the hell will be brave enough to admit you voted for Wynn? Clearly this is a majority of you.
 
@RockerGuy

Breeder Reactors. Produce nearly 100 times less waste: Make they're own fuel out of spent fuel and thus require less fuel. Less in, less out.

Sadly funding for their commercial development was cut by Obama, so that's on the shelf for a while... at least until they're done cashing in on the "Carbon Crisis"
 
@RockerGuy

Breeder Reactors. Produce nearly 100 times less waste: Make they're own fuel out of spent fuel and thus require less fuel. Less in, less out.

Sadly funding for their commercial development was cut by Obama, so that's on the shelf for a while... at least until they're done cashing in on the "Carbon Crisis"
What about the looming danger of a reactor going boom? Always that risk
 
[video=youtube;iNpfn1zMwLs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNpfn1zMwLs[/video]
 
How do you define "accurately enough" 90+% have overstated warming. This despite the fact that CO2 levels have increased exactly as predicted .. :confused: So I would assert the main dispute is more accurately defined by asking what effect CO2 actually has on said rate of change.

I could spend all night trying to convince you but to be honest I've had this argument way to many times, and you're using enough buzz words and terms for me to recognize the efforts would be wasted; but maybe 4 Canadian scientist testifying in front of our Senate may convince you to at least dig deeper than a google search for the aforementioned catch phrases; or to look beyond the politically influenced reports put forward by the IPCC.... or maybe you respond with angry rhetoric as the vice-chair of this committee saw fit. Either way, you should watch. It was quite the interesting discussion. Video is old (2011), but it's the kind of stuff actually being discussed by scientist and suppressed by media and government alike
[video=youtube;oMmZF8gB7Gs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMmZF8gB7Gs[/video]
I believe in global warming and our need to intervene to mitigate its effects. But I recognize I'm poorly informed, as most of us are, and always seek information to support or contradict what I think is true. In particular, I look for info from deniers or skeptics as I'm already favouring GW as a reality so it doesn't make sense to look for more info that won't change my opinion.

I've always run up on some really bad information from deniers and skeptics, either in the form of irrelevant or distorted info, contradictions, or just plain untruths. But of course there are always going to be people who present illegitimate arguments, whether they're believers or skeptics. That doesn't really tell us anything about the facts.

I figured this video would be very promising as it's testimony from scholarly people who have been sought by a representative slice of our political body to officially testify what they know. And I have absolutely not one problem with anything they said. That's a first for me with this type of info! They present very cogent, clear, and seemingly fact-based arguments (which I don't feel the need to double-check - they're all credible to me).

So what affect has this information had on me? Well I still believe in GW and its hazards, but I am more skeptical about the scale of CO2's influence, about the predictions for warming, and about the extent of damage that it will bring to the planet even if that predicted warming happens. The thing I like best about the video is they don't pretend to have all the answers, which is what makes it so credible to me. They present a healthy skepticism without claiming GW is a commie conspiracy or saying that it will doom the planet if we don't act now. Accordingly, I also am a skeptic, even as I choose to believe that GW is likely true and a concern that we need to prepare for. There isn't any info in the video to contradict that perspective.

FWIW, the reasons I still believe in GW are:
1- Because CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It simply is. That's one of its properties. The more it's concentrated in the atmosphere the more heat will be retained. There's no way around that.
2- The actions of major business and apolitical organisations to factor GW into their contingency plans. They include insurance companies, militaries, and anyone seeking to exploit new opportunities in the arctic.
3- The broad consensus within the scientific community that GW is real.

My skepticism simply means that the warming may only be a tiny sliver of a concern, possibly nowhere near as big of a problem as we're being told right now.
 
I believe in global warming and our need to intervene to mitigate its effects. But I recognize I'm poorly informed, as most of us are, and always seek information to support or contradict what I think is true. In particular, I look for info from deniers or skeptics as I'm already favouring GW as a reality so it doesn't make sense to look for more info that won't change my opinion.

I've always run up on some really bad information from deniers and skeptics, either in the form of irrelevant or distorted info, contradictions, or just plain untruths. But of course there are always going to be people who present illegitimate arguments, whether they're believers or skeptics. That doesn't really tell us anything about the facts.

I figured this video would be very promising as it's testimony from scholarly people who have been sought by a representative slice of our political body to officially testify what they know. And I have absolutely not one problem with anything they said. That's a first for me with this type of info! They present very cogent, clear, and seemingly fact-based arguments (which I don't feel the need to double-check - they're all credible to me).

So what affect has this information had on me? Well I still believe in GW and its hazards, but I am more skeptical about the scale of CO2's influence, about the predictions for warming, and about the extent of damage that it will bring to the planet even if that predicted warming happens. The thing I like best about the video is they don't pretend to have all the answers, which is what makes it so credible to me. They present a healthy skepticism without claiming GW is a commie conspiracy or saying that it will doom the planet if we don't act now. Accordingly, I also am a skeptic, even as I choose to believe that GW is likely true and a concern that we need to prepare for. There isn't any info in the video to contradict that perspective.

FWIW, the reasons I still believe in GW are:
1- Because CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It simply is. That's one of its properties. The more it's concentrated in the atmosphere the more heat will be retained. There's no way around that.
2- The actions of major business and apolitical organisations to factor GW into their contingency plans. They include insurance companies, militaries, and anyone seeking to exploit new opportunities in the arctic.
3- The broad consensus within the scientific community that GW is real.

My skepticism simply means that the warming may only be a tiny sliver of a concern, possibly nowhere near as big of a problem as we're being told right now.

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to atleast here some of the other side before passing judgement. For me I must clarify that I of course believe GW is happening; The question is, are we the cause? and to expand on that, is CO2 a trigger? I truly believe no to both, but even if I'm wrong, the push to mitigate/tax/trade CO2 is an entirely fruitless pursuit; and I would suggest looking into the works Professor Bjorn Lomborg for a far more detailed reasoning behind that statement. (FWIW Lomborg is a 100% believer in AGW)

[video=youtube;oXXNGjeNQTo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXXNGjeNQTo[/video]

Honestly, this line of discussion is likely far more relevant to the thread
 
I'll come in with the laymans' bs opinion. When it occurred to me that the earths atmosphere is razor thin in relation to it's diameter I thought, golly geewhiz. How many billions of barrels of oil have been burned since the dawn of the industrial revolution? Wouldn't that be akin to putting a pipe in the ground and lighting it up? Imagine a multi billion barrel 100+ year burn. The products of combustion encased in a razor thin atmosphere. They say the Fort Mac fire is having an effect on weather. That's just a strike match compared to all the oil burned thus far. How could all this fuel burning have no effect on climate:confused:
 
I'll come in with the laymans' bs opinion. When it occurred to me that the earths atmosphere is razor thin in relation to it's diameter I thought, golly geewhiz. How many billions of barrels of oil have been burned since the dawn of the industrial revolution? Wouldn't that be akin to putting a pipe in the ground and lighting it up? Imagine a multi billion barrel 100+ year burn. The products of combustion encased in a razor thin atmosphere. They say the Fort Mac fire is having an effect on weather. That's just a strike match compared to all the oil burned thus far. How could all this fuel burning have no effect on climate:confused:

Think of the climate as a giant CO2 pump; sure if you released the cumulative CO2 of a 100 year burn all at once, you'd have quite the quandary and the pump would not be able to keep up. What we've released over a hundred year time frame is (imo) a non factor. Again only 3.5% of the total yearly CO2 emission in the carbon cycle are in anyway attributed to our activities. If Yellowstone pops we'll see what real climate change is all about.
 
Think of the climate as a giant CO2 pump; sure if you released the cumulative CO2 of a 100 year burn all at once, you'd have quite the quandary and the pump would not be able to keep up. What we've released over a hundred year time frame is (imo) a non factor. Again only 3.5% of the total yearly CO2 emission in the carbon cycle are in anyway attributed to our activities. If Yellowstone pops we'll see what real climate change is all about.

In other words, we've taken a system with natural checks and balances that has remained in relative equilibrium for ages, and introduced an external 3.5% human-caused factor to throw that equilibrium out of balance and beyond the ability of the earth to naturally mitigate.

last_1000_years.png


last_1000_years.png
 
In other words, we've taken a system with natural checks and balances that has remained in relative equilibrium for ages, and introduced an external 3.5% human-caused factor to throw that equilibrium out of balance and beyond the ability of the earth to naturally mitigate.

Relative equilibrium!! You've got to be kidding me!!!

last_400000_years.png


^^^^ Do you remember this graph? You should, you posted it.

20 degree swings completely devoid of human influence. Total harmony and balance :rolleyes:
 
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