Braking by Nick Ienatsch

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Also remeber not every skill is designed for new riders, you have to learn to walk before you learn to run. Always take things one step at a time and work up to the more advanced skills.
 
Time to finally pick up Nick's book...got the last copy on Amazon.ca :D
 
i never understood the logic behind staying into the throttle when you're not going to make a corner. The arguement is always, "rolling off makes the bike want to stand up", so just apply more bar pressure. If you're going too fast, closing the thing thats making you go fast always seemed like common sense to me.
 
FriendlyFoe said:
i never understood the logic behind staying into the throttle when you're not going to make a corner. The arguement is always, "rolling off makes the bike want to stand up", so just apply more bar pressure. If you're going too fast, closing the thing thats making you go fast always seemed like common sense to me.
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shifts weight to front, lose contact patch on rear = traction loss.

You are far better off trail braking.
 
OpenGambit said:
shifts weight to front, lose contact patch on rear = traction loss.

You are far better off trail braking.
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Umm no, you're not going to lose the rear by closing the throttle. If done abruptly you might tuck the front, but nothing should be done abruptly. So trail brake with the throttle still open, umm....


Outlaws Justice said:
You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.
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that should be read as less traction not losing the rear.

I don't think I was saying you are supposed to give it more gas I just said don't chop it?
 
FriendlyFoe said:
i never understood the logic behind staying into the throttle when you're not going to make a corner. The arguement is always, "rolling off makes the bike want to stand up", so just apply more bar pressure. If you're going too fast, closing the thing thats making you go fast always seemed like common sense to me.
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You also loose ground clearance when you decrease the throttle, increase ground clearance when you get on the throttle.
 
Outlaws Justice said:
You also loose ground clearance when you decrease the throttle, increase ground clearance when you get on the throttle.
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I forget at times that this isnt a sportbike forum. I'm not used to thinking about ground clearance as being an issue, at least not on the street (and i havent been brave enough to drag my fairings at the track yet).

reciprocity said:
Yes you can, it is quite easy.

The term in car handling is called lift-off oversteer.
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Dont confuse this as arguing with you, because i know better, but given the context of what i was talking about it's still the right thing to do. As per nick ienatsch, i was mostly just agreeing that i've heard the same advice too that he had ranted about.
 
Brian P said:
Having said that ... you can high-side ANYTHING if you do the wrong things with it.
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Saw a guy high-side a brand new Repsol CBR 125 at the Gymkhana thing at Honda/Rock the red. Didn't think it could be done, but it was spectacular.

-Jamie M.
 
And no one caught it on video? What a shame!!!
 
FriendlyFoe said:
And no one caught it on video? What a shame!!!
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It's "almost" on video, super high speed burst professional camera got it, but he requested the pictures "not to be published" by the photographer. I saw them when they were on the camera, had a pic of him flying superman style mid air, the bike laying flat on the ground under him. Absolutely epic pic. Not sure if the photographer gave him the photos or not.

-Jamie M.
 
The original post should come with a caveat:
When the body is pumped up full of adrenaline (like when facing an on-coming truck), it becomes a lot harder to control the fine motor movements described in the OP. I guess what I mean is that I wouldn't let myself get carried away on the street, just b/c I can do this on the track.
 
Cougar said:
I wonder if the same care at the same level is required for an ABS + Trac Control bike.
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Yes,, motorcycle traction control is a very simple system as opposed to 4 wheel stability management systems.

Traction control works as either a difference engine that calculates the difference between front and rear wheel speeds and commits to preventing wheelspin at the rear when a condition outside of its set parameters is met, this is usually OEM type traction control, the second type is the Bazzaz system where the rate of crankshaft acceleration is measured and timing cut when an accell level is too high for the set conditions.

Neither of these systems works in a sideways slip condition while cornering unless wheelspin is detected.

Motorcycle ABS is at its root, also simplistic vs automotive systems for many of the same reasons, the ABS is run with the same type of difference engine calculations as the OEM traction control.
 
Cougar said:
I wonder if the same care at the same level is required for an ABS + Trac Control bike.
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ABS and traction control can compensate for SOME degree of rider error, but certainly not all of it.

ABS will work correctly when the bike is straight up and down. Hammer both front and rear brakes at will. The system will take care of modulating front/rear brake bias but only at the point of the tire trying to lock up. There is not room for cornering traction at this point (see earlier post that explained the concept of "traction circle" or "traction points").

Traction control will work when the bike is picking up acceleration out of a corner. That is what sport bike traction control does. If the rear wheel tries to accelerate quicker than the front, it cuts engine power. For a situation as described in the original post - managing what happens if the rider sees an obstacle mid-corner and has to take evasive action - this system does NOTHING for you.

ABS application due to heavy braking mid-corner at high lean angle would be on very questionable ground. The results will not be worse than doing the same thing on a non-ABS bike ... but they might not be better, either. Still, if you come around a corner to see a truck all the way across the road in your lane, better to take your chances by braking than a for sure situation of hitting that truck as a result of not braking. The concept of "traction circle" still applies - so if at all possible, straighten up a little while simultaneously and smoothly applying brake, aiming for the outside of the corner (and hopefully outside the obstruction) ... just like you would do with a non-ABS bike.

Twice this summer, I have had front-end slides on a street ride because of crossing a sand patch. ABS or traction control will do NOTHING in this situation.
 
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