Bill 7 $400 a day for hospital stay

[raginduck]

Anything can be challenged, I don't think this will win. They are being transferred on a temporary basis. There are alternatives if the family/patient prefers (bring them home or rent a hotel room and pay for care or leave them in hospital and pay). People seem to think the charter protects their every whim with all costs covered. It doesn't.

I don't think it's that simple to be able to say either side will "win".
I think there will be more than one group challenging Bill 7... and significant support.

Personally, I'm torn... We need the hospital beds... but I don't like the idea we're gonna be pushing around old people. IMO.. this is a unacceptable failure and needs to be properly fixed asap.

 

[Mad Mike]

Ontario could face Charter challenge over law forcing some elderly hospital patients into nursing homes​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-elderly-forced-nursing-home-bill-7-challenge-1.6659119

Hmmm. CUPE again (the Ontario Health Coalition is one of their disguises). Their solution is to load dumpsters with cash.

I don't see Bill 7 as changing things a whole lot, and certainly not a bad thing. 6 mos ago I could have left a hospital to cater to dad -- it would be easy, the hospital is 5 minutes from his home. Easy. Convenient, reasonable care. I can see why some people want to stretch it out.

Bill 7 impacts a small number of people, about 1800 in Ontario right now. It doesn't change priorities, it forces families to make some really tough decisions and a small number of people will be really inconvenienced as their care transitions from a hospital to a transitional care bed an hour from .

Nothing else changes.

 

[nobbie48]

Hmmm. CUPE again (the Ontario Health Coalition is one of their disguises). Their solution is to load dumpsters with cash.

I don't see Bill 7 as changing things a whole lot, and certainly not a bad thing. 6 mos ago I could have left a hospital to cater to dad -- it would be easy, the hospital is 5 minutes from his home. Easy. Convenient, reasonable care. I can see why some people want to stretch it out.

Bill 7 impacts a small number of people, about 1800 in Ontario right now. It doesn't change priorities, it forces families to make some really tough decisions and a small number of people will be really inconvenienced as their care transitions from a hospital to a transitional care bed an hour from .

Nothing else changes.

It's hard to judge the effect of the changes. A lot of elderly people don't get visitors because their friends are all dead. Dementia is a big problem if they don't recognize their own family.

LTC in a touristy spot has merit, especially if the patient has dementia. Visit granny and makes sure she's OK and then go to a quaint store / restaurant / coffee shop as a treat. LTC in an industrial area would suck.

Care at home needs equipment. A 100 pound person feels like 200 if they are a limp bag of bones. Lifts are needed for bed and baths. Go short on equipment and you become another patient.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Book a spot because waiting lists are five to ten years unless you have deep pockets.

For the record, this doesn't really work.....once your name comes up you have something like 48 hours to accept the bed or you lose your spot and go to the back of the line again. So if you get an offer at 2 or 3 years but you're still spry and not ready to head to a home and pass up the bed, but then suddenly need it a year later, you're still gonna wait another few years again unless you go crisis.

 

[GreyGhost]

For the record, this doesn't really work.....once your name comes up you have something like 48 hours to accept the bed or you lose your spot and go to the back of the line again. So if you get an offer at 2 or 3 years but you're still spry and not ready to head to a home and pass up the bed, but then suddenly need it a year later, you're still gonna wait another few years again unless you go crisis.

On a similar note, I got a call a few months ago that a daycare spot was opening up for one of my kids. It took me a minute to catch on as it was a daycare near our old house and we moved years ago. Not sure how that works when by the time you get to the front of the waiting list, your kids are in school and you no longer need daycare.

 

[Mad Mike]

For the record, this doesn't really work.....once your name comes up you have something like 48 hours to accept the bed or you lose your spot and go to the back of the line again. So if you get an offer at 2 or 3 years but you're still spry and not ready to head to a home and pass up the bed, but then suddenly need it a year later, you're still gonna wait another few years again unless you go crisis.

You cant go on the wait list until you qualify for LTC, at that point you won't be spry enough because all your spry would have been gone in order to qualify.

You have to accept immediately, you have 5 days to move in or you start over. That doesn't mean you're locked in - the door is open and you are free to come and go, it just means you start paying for your room.

 

[Mad Mike]

On a similar note, I got a call a few months ago that a daycare spot was opening up for one of my kids. It took me a minute to catch on as it was a daycare near our old house and we moved years ago. Not sure how that works when by the time you get to the front of the waiting list, your kids are in school and you no longer need daycare.

Red envelopes shorten wait times.

 

[PrivatePilot]

You cant go on the wait list until you qualify for LTC

Sure, but some wise forward thinkers are wise to this now and go to their doctors to "pre quality" even before they really want/need to go, and then spin the wheel hoping to get their first choice of home around the time they think they might be ready to go. It doesn't always work out.

 

[Mad Mike]

Sure, but some wise forward thinkers are wise to this now and go to their doctors to "pre quality" even before they really want/need to go, and then spin the wheel hoping to get their first choice of home around the time they think they might be ready to go. It doesn't always work out.

Doctors don't decide, a local community charity (lihn) asseses needs based on your physical, cognitive and capacity for home care. If you are unable to care for yourself and you lack capacity for proper care at home, you qualify and they do your application.

LTC is only available when you need 24 hour care.

 

[nobbie48]

For the record, this doesn't really work.....once your name comes up you have something like 48 hours to accept the bed or you lose your spot and go to the back of the line again. So if you get an offer at 2 or 3 years but you're still spry and not ready to head to a home and pass up the bed, but then suddenly need it a year later, you're still gonna wait another few years again unless you go crisis.

My concern exactly. I don't want to give up my toys yet but don't want to be left out in the cold if the Mrs or I suddenly can't handle stairs. A condo rental would be a transition but I'd go stir crazy. Things can change fast in one's later years so playing the real estate market may not be a good idea.

I think it's easy to find a decent spot but they don't come cheap. That's the hard part. No one wants to spent the money from the house. It's for the kids etc. Ten grand a month for ten years wipes out a lot of equity.

 

[crankcall]

Care will cost what it costs , we only have one parent left and I can guarantee she’s not moving in here .
Old folks are going to have to get used to the idea maybe they can’t leave a nest egg for the kids . Maybe it needs to foot a care bill .


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

 

[GreyGhost]

Care will cost what it costs , we only have one parent left and I can guarantee she’s not moving in here .
Old folks are going to have to get used to the idea maybe they can’t leave a nest egg for the kids . Maybe it needs to foot a care bill .


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

There is another option that can be considered. Do you light your nest egg on fire and let it burn while you are a zombie with no quality of life or do you make the decision to put the fire out once you no longer enjoy life? No right answer to that question. It was a question that until recently was much harder to entertain.

 

[crankcall]

Friends dad just went through the assisted death plan over the Thanksgiving weekend . At 99 he had all his marbles but his body was failing him at an alarms rate , after a fall and long hospital stay , he was never going back into hospital, he was checking out . It’s good to have that option.


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

 

[ReSTored]

Doctors don't decide, a local community charity (lihn) asseses needs based on your physical, cognitive and capacity for home care. If you are unable to care for yourself and you lack capacity for proper care at home, you qualify and they do your application.

LTC is only available when you need 24 hour care.

I'm not sure why you are referring to the Local Health Integration Network (LHIN) as a charity.

Home | Home and Community Care Support Services

Ontario’s 14 Home and Community Care Support Services organizations coordinate in-home and community-based care for over 400,000 patients every month. Our mission is to help everyone be healthier at home through connected, accessible, patient-centred care.

www.health.gov.on.ca

LHIN's were set up 15 - 20 years ago to coordinate all MOHLTC healthcare resources in 14 districts across Ontario. The LHIN and their mandate have been restructured several times. They are absolutely not a charity in any sense of the word. Right now the LHIN's are primarily responsible for non hospital health care.

Ontario Health coordinates and manages hospital and non hospital health resources across the province. Ontario Health | Ontario Health

I live in Mississauga. You referred to the Halton LHIN. The Mississauga Halton LHIN is responsible for Home Care and LTC administration. These are the people who government and manage who gets home care and how admissions to LTC are managed within the MHLHIN. Overall, the process is the same across all LHIN's, but each LHIN might approach some aspects differently.

Mississauga Halton area | Ontario Health atHome

We are now Ontario Health atHome (opens in a new tab) , a single organization coordinating local home and community care, long-term care placement and help ...

healthcareathome.ca

Apply for long-term care

Learn how to apply and start preparing for your move.

www.ontario.ca

Placement Priority Categories

Each person who applies for long-term care is assigned a priority category. The priority of each person on the waitlist also affects wait time.

• Category 1 - People who need immediate admission to long-term care and cannot have their needs met at home, or who are in hospital, when hospital is in crisis. People in a LTCH that is closing within 12 weeks.
• Category 2 - People who need to be reunified with their spouses/partners who are currently residing in a long-term care home, and who meet eligibility requirements (including care needs.)
• Category 3A - People waiting for a Long-term Care Home serving those of a particular religion, ethnic origin or culture. People who have high care needs, but can still be supported at home until a bed becomes available. People in hospital waiting for long-term care. People in a long-term care home seeking transfer to their home of choice.
• Category 3B - People waiting for a Long-term Care Home serving those of a particular religion, ethnic origin or culture. People with care needs who are currently managing at home with supports. Wait times for clients in this category are much longer.
• Category 4A - People who have high care needs, but can still be supported at home until a bed becomes available. People in hospital waiting for long-term care. People in a long-term care home seeking transfer to their home of choice.
• Category 4B - People with care needs who are currently managing at home with supports. Wait times for clients in this category are much longer.
• Veteran - People who are veterans and are applying to be placed into a Long-term Care Home that contains Veteran Priority Access Beds.

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm not sure why you are referring to the Local Health Integration Network (LHIN) as a charity.

Home | Home and Community Care Support Services

Ontario’s 14 Home and Community Care Support Services organizations coordinate in-home and community-based care for over 400,000 patients every month. Our mission is to help everyone be healthier at home through connected, accessible, patient-centred care.

www.health.gov.on.ca

LHIN's were set up 15 - 20 years ago to coordinate all MOHLTC healthcare resources in 14 districts across Ontario. The LHIN and their mandate have been restructured several times. They are absolutely not a charity in any sense of the word. Right now the LHIN's are primarily responsible for non hospital health care.

Ontario Health coordinates and manages hospital and non hospital health resources across the province. Ontario Health | Ontario Health

I live in Mississauga. You referred to the Halton LHIN. The Mississauga Halton LHIN is responsible for Home Care and LTC administration. These are the people who government and manage who gets home care and how admissions to LTC are managed within the MHLHIN. Overall, the process is the same across all LHIN's, but each LHIN might approach some aspects differently.

Mississauga Halton area | Ontario Health atHome

We are now Ontario Health atHome (opens in a new tab) , a single organization coordinating local home and community care, long-term care placement and help ...

healthcareathome.ca

Apply for long-term care

Learn how to apply and start preparing for your move.

www.ontario.ca

Placement Priority Categories

Each person who applies for long-term care is assigned a priority category. The priority of each person on the waitlist also affects wait time.

• Category 1 - People who need immediate admission to long-term care and cannot have their needs met at home, or who are in hospital, when hospital is in crisis. People in a LTCH that is closing within 12 weeks.
• Category 2 - People who need to be reunified with their spouses/partners who are currently residing in a long-term care home, and who meet eligibility requirements (including care needs.)
• Category 3A - People waiting for a Long-term Care Home serving those of a particular religion, ethnic origin or culture. People who have high care needs, but can still be supported at home until a bed becomes available. People in hospital waiting for long-term care. People in a long-term care home seeking transfer to their home of choice.
• Category 3B - People waiting for a Long-term Care Home serving those of a particular religion, ethnic origin or culture. People with care needs who are currently managing at home with supports. Wait times for clients in this category are much longer.
• Category 4A - People who have high care needs, but can still be supported at home until a bed becomes available. People in hospital waiting for long-term care. People in a long-term care home seeking transfer to their home of choice.
• Category 4B - People with care needs who are currently managing at home with supports. Wait times for clients in this category are much longer.
• Veteran - People who are veterans and are applying to be placed into a Long-term Care Home that contains Veteran Priority Access Beds.

Which category is crisis? I've never heard the numbers but have often heard of a crisis list referred to. From the description, it would seem like Cat 1 but there is something above it so this list is PR. Also, you would think the priority list would be in order but veteran below people who are managing at home with support doesn't make sense. Back to the list being PR not actually how priority works.

 

[nobbie48]

Care will cost what it costs , we only have one parent left and I can guarantee she’s not moving in here .
Old folks are going to have to get used to the idea maybe they can’t leave a nest egg for the kids . Maybe it needs to foot a care bill .


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

My mother was a control freak and my M-I-L had subtle mental issues from WWII experiences. Granny flats would be stressful. Within the same walls, a nightmare with either. Fortunately it never became an issue. RIP X 2. Both cognizant at home until the end.

That seems to be one of the modern day problems. Three generations co-existing in one house is extremely rare. Why??? Economically it's a great idea.

Is it marketing, the "I'm the centre of the universe" attitude all too common today? (It sells a lot of stuff)

People living long enough to develop various forms of dementia?

Junk food diets putting people into wheelchairs / insulin dependency?

Dogmatic attitudes?

All of the above?

 

[GreyGhost]

My mother was a control freak and my M-I-L had subtle mental issues from WWII experiences. Granny flats would be stressful. Within the same walls, a nightmare with either. Fortunately it never became an issue. RIP X 2. Both cognizant at home until the end.

That seems to be one of the modern day problems. Three generations co-existing in one house is extremely rare. Why??? Economically it's a great idea.

Is it marketing, the "I'm the centre of the universe" attitude all too common today? (It sells a lot of stuff)

People living long enough to develop various forms of dementia?

Junk food diets putting people into wheelchairs / insulin dependency?

Dogmatic attitudes?

All of the above?

Add in two working adults to the list of issues. Before, one was home almost full time and could help care for the elderly. For a while, the older generation can help out the younger generation but once you pass the neutral point, things get messy really quickly.

My grandma lived with us for more than a decade. It was very stressful on my mom (and by extension everybody else). She fell, broke her arm, had a stroke, got dementia, etc while still in the house. Eventually it was too much and she went to LTC which was much better emotionally for everybody.

 

[nobbie48]

Add in two working adults to the list of issues. Before, one was home almost full time and could help care for the elderly. For a while, the older generation can help out the younger generation but once you pass the neutral point, things get messy really quickly.

My grandma lived with us for more than a decade. It was very stressful on my mom (and by extension everybody else). She fell, broke her arm, had a stroke, got dementia, etc while still in the house. Eventually it was too much and she went to LTC which was much better emotionally for everybody.

Life ain't the Waltons. Good night John-Boy.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Doctors don't decide, a local community charity (lihn) asseses needs based on your physical, cognitive and capacity for home care.

I won't get into a ton of details except to say that my wife used to be involved in this process. Family doctors have been known to coach their patients on gaming the process to "get the ball rolling" and their name on the list, but not be critical enough that they expect to be getting a phone call any time soon.

And the organizations involved are very much not charities.

I think it's easy to find a decent spot but they don't come cheap. That's the hard part. No one wants to spent the money from the house.

I think my dad did it right - he spent pretty much everything, gave me and the rest of the family some of it ahead of time, and structured the rest in such a way that there wasn't any meaningful "income" anymore, which is what ones monthly living expenses in the public nursing home system is based upon before subsidies kick in. He ended up going to a very nice municipally run nursing home and was only paying something like $1000/month, the majority of which was covered by his OAS and CPP...and he still had a little bit left over at the end of every month for spending money. The remainder was covered by through government subsidy, My dad worked his ass off his whole life and contributed well to the system his whole life...I didn't feel bad nor did he feel guilty I'm sure taking some back at the end.

I think the mistake that some people make is trying to take their money to the grave, only to give it all to something like a nursing home at the end instead of dispensing it to more important people beforehand.

Personally, my wife and I plan to spend a metric but ton of our retirement savings in the first 10 years or so after retirement while we're (hopefully, knock on wood) still able to physically enjoy ourselves....travel, fun, etc. When we're done and our bodies won't play along anymore, our income needs will be less, and we'll make do with our pensions and OAS etc. When it's clear to us that we're headed for a nursing home in the next few years, we'll be liquidating and distributing, or if we can, spending some more of it.

As Hunter S Thompson wisely said.... “Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”

 

[crankcall]

Quoting Hunter S Thompson on life decisions LOL . um ok...