Corners come in all different shapes and sizes. Granted while I am not accademically(sp?) accredited in cornering per racing school my spidy sense tells you'll be first out the other side using varying degrees of later or earlier apexing depending on a multitude of factors. This is what seperates the fast guys from gtamers. Unless you mean "late apex" as in later than what is optimal for that corner having already factored in the multitude of factors.
Bike vs Bike Head on Mulholland.
- Thread starter kiwi
- Start date
Corners come in all different shapes and sizes. Granted while I am not accademically(sp?) accredited in cornering per racing school my spidy sense tells you'll be first out the other side using varying degrees of later or earlier apexing depending on a multitude of factors. This is what seperates the fast guys from gtamers. Unless you mean "late apex" as in later than what is optimal for that corner having already factored in the multitude of factors.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
You are using terminology of how a corner can be taken to try to inherently describe a type of corner. No bueno. Regardless of shape or size, the fastest way through a corner is to apex it.
So there is no such thing as a late apex corner or early apex corner where doing that is the fastest way through the corner, it simply is the physical action of apexing a corner late or early, both of which are slower than going through a corner doing a normal apex.
^ read it now, understand later but in the meantime you mentioned "late apexing" as in, I assume, safely street apexing. I'm saying, depending on size and shape of corner, this may indeed be the fastest way thru. Twiss Rd uphill just after the frog pond would be a good example of that.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
I was just posting about late apexing in general, it could be street or track. And again no, a normal apex is always the fastest way through a corner. Never ever is it late or early apexing. It's black and white, no shades of grey or caveats.
Understand I'm talking out of my arse(nal) of intuition but what you're saying sure seems counter intuitive. There has to be certain shapes of corners that benefit from squaring off. It wouldn't be a flowing corner obviously. I guess it would help if I knew what a normal apex is and how it's established. Until I get there I'm going to keep insisting time thru a corner can be made up by having the bike upright longer for harder braking, deeper.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
Your getting there but mixing up things a bit still. Let me get to the root of what some of you people are trying to say but not doing well. As I said, the fastest way around a corner is a normal apex. But that isn't necessarily the fastest way around a track. Remember a track isn't just corners. So being slower in a corner due to early or late apex may be beneficial overall in a lap of a track because of what comes after the corner, or earlier than the corner. That's what Jayell is assuming in his statement. And that's the thing I've said in far fewer words all along. "A late apex on a track is not the fastest way around a corner, nor is it the racing line per say." It's also why I said JC100 was wrong at the beginning of all this. A ride around a track on the best line will likely have early, normal and late apexes each in different corners. That is to the benefit of having the fastest lap time. But when it comes to a corner and just a corner, the normal apex is the fastest around it. An early or late apex will be slower through a corner than a normal apex. Hope this all makes sense now.
This is all taught at FAST School (can't remember which phase). It is another one of many reasons why track riding makes people a better rider and why it helps people be better riders on the street too.
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No doubt. Anyway, last year I grudge raced a buddy/nemesis from Belfountain to Hamilton, something I will never do again btw, and at the aforementioned Twiss Rd. uphill he took the classic racing line which put me right on his back wheel using the late apex.
I've told this next story a few times and the reaction is always like I said $H1t tastes good. But here we go. I took the FAST school in 1988, FZ600's on virgin Shannonville pavement. I'm not a good student. I was the only one to crash that day. Was also faster than everybody by far save for a French guy who got within 2 seconds/lap. I took weird lines. Flame away.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
I see no reason to flame that. In my books track training is track training no matter the date and most of it still applies. It was a lot harder imo back in the day on old school tires. Your experience shows a basic fact not many people truly appreciate. Motorcycle riding/racing is 95% rider and 5% machine, at least until you get to professional racer level. Some people are good riders and can be fast even if they don't have the experience such as knowing the racing line and cornering basics/theory. Especially when combined with fearlessness. Definitely some people have a much higher risk tolerance level than others, or compared to what is normal. Basically, I fall into that group.
I agree 110%. The fastest way through a corner (on it's own, entirely independent) is through it's 'normal' apex. Now throw that out the window because it's foolish to consider a corner entirely independent. You can't! It never is! As you yourself speak of early and late apexes in consideration of what comes before and after the turn - like another turn.
This is another reason why track riding won't help riders on the street too (fuels the fire), because while the track star will be focused on hitting that apex, the street rider will be focused on pedestrians, gravel, curbs, cars, squirrels, water, flying monkyes, cyclists, oncoming traffic, stop lines, stop lights, ... and realizing the safest and quickest (crashing adds a ton of time) way through a corner might be to not even come close to the apex, because hitting the apex might lead to some sort of crash.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
I disagree. When I track I go for a fast lap time, when I street I go for a perfect apex in a corner. Because what comes before or after doesn't matter on the street. And I'll ride to a level that accounts for adequate safety easily. I love the ability to just hit a corner perfectly on the street with a normal apex, where it's not about or it doesn't concern speed or lap time. It's all about repetition, learning and experience. It helps on the track and vice versa.
Irrelevant in my opinion. Hitting a normal apex on the street perfectly can be accomplished regardless of speed or potential hazards. I typically do a normal apex on the street to continue learning lines and gaining experience, all the while still accounting for pedestrians, gravel, curbs, cars, squirrels, etc. That can be done by adjusting speed if necessary, or not doing it if unsafe because of some squirrel or whatever. A normal apex is not in any way exclusive in any significant manner from street riding as you may think or suggest.
Learning the apex translates well on both the street and track. And frankly the track is a much more hardcore riding experience that is difficult to master than the street. In some ways I feel like I can sleep walk in street riding, as I should because it shouldn't be as intense as the track.
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