Bike broke down again
- Thread starter sburns
- Start date
Was thinking the exact same thing when I saw it pulled apart. Pricey though as you've also got fuel controller/dyno to add in among other stuff. Friend of mine did the exact same thing on his 12 SG and it's never ran right (even had a reputable shop do the install (Pushrod Performance in Durham).
sburns
Well-known member
That is the exactly the kind of stuff I want to avoid, and all the extra tricky stuff I can't do myself and have to depend on a shop to pull off perfectly. Nope.
Plus one other thing I have learned about HD's, there is a lot of yahoo's around these bikes who don't know chit. As I've experienced either by talking to mechanics, service reps, indy mechanics etc etc. I'm better off doing as much as possible myself.
It shouldn't.
If you think the charging system is the cause of running issues, simple test: unplug the stator from the regulator and see if the stutter goes away. The bike will run quite happily with no charging system.
The first thing I would be doing is measuring those jugs. I bet you don't own a bore gauge... take it to any engine rebuilder and if you ask nicely they will measure them for you... for a small fee. Take the pistons with you ( I also bet you don't have a 4" micrometer)(You CANNOT do these measurements with a caliper)(Doesn't have to be a dial indicator bore gauge, I use these... but you'll need someone to show you how to drive them. There are "el cheapo" versions available on Amazon. Accu-size is in Markham and they have a store front).
If that's not in the cards, put the piston in the bore and ram feeler gauges between the piston and the cylinder wall, at numerous places.
I don't think your cylinders are round
I don't think the cylinders are round, either, but the visible cross-hatching on most of the bore except where the studs are (and where the scuffing is) suggests that it's probably pretty close to round ... obviously not close enough (LOL) but the out-of-round may be difficult to measure ... and the cylinder may be distorting when it's clamped in place, which is why it's worn like that. It's academic at this point, those cylinders either need to be honed, or bored oversize, or chucked in the bin and replaced. And with high mileage on the bike, the old question "how much is it worth spending" has to be asked. "Why did this happen in the first place" is another darn good question, because if that doesn't get addressed, it may happen again.
Believe me, I've been there; I've got the remains of a bike in my own shop that pooched itself just over a year ago, and it's not worth the cost of the replacement parts, and that's on top of a "mean time between failures" issue. (If I fix this, what's going to break next?) Waiting for the right (cheap) parts bike or replacement engine to pop up.
Believe me, I've been there; I've got the remains of a bike in my own shop that pooched itself just over a year ago, and it's not worth the cost of the replacement parts, and that's on top of a "mean time between failures" issue. (If I fix this, what's going to break next?) Waiting for the right (cheap) parts bike or replacement engine to pop up.
An interesting question that is relatively easy to answer is how big is he now? Calipers should be good enough to tell him if it was already bored out once as somebody suspected (or clean the piston heads and look for a number).
sburns
Well-known member
This might seem like a dumb question, but can a seized cylinder be taken apart? When I think of seized, my thought goes to it being completely stuck in the motor. But I guess if the head goes out of spec (which is suggested by the photos and comments) this can also cause it to seize and just stop functioning as the tolerances are quite tight, but still allow it to come apart.
Honestly when I took it apart I thought 1 of the rings would be busted or something.
Honestly when I took it apart I thought 1 of the rings would be busted or something.
Things change size and shape with temperature. From the pics we have seen, I doubt the piston ever seized in that cylinder. Just rubbing. It could be possible to be locked up when hot and spin when cooler (but it should leave some ugly evidence).
I still don't love your description of friction in the bottom end. Have you drained the oil since this happened and looked for sparkles?
Unless your pictures are hiding damage, those pistons didn't seize. A seized motor leaves marks.
MY issue is the obvious un-even wear on the cylinder walls. There was more wear where the cross hatch has been worn off, there are numerous places where the diameter is smaller, high spots, which is why it wore like that, but that leaves the rings un-supported in the low spots. Un-supported rings "flutter", which allows blowby which heats up the motor and makes for oil consumption... sound familiar?
Harley bottom ends are unique in the motorcycle world and have "knife and blade" rods
that have more wear points than a "normal" rod. If the get to the point where there is "sparkles" in the oil, they would knock like a MFer. Look for BABBITT in the oil, looks like a gray paste. Sieve the used oil through a coffee filter.
I've never seen it in a Harley, (the only Harley I've spent any real time with was a Pro-stock) but I've seen on Nortons often (same setup, big bore with a TRUE dry sump)... what happens if you get lots of blow-by is you pressurize the crankcase with air pressure, and if the air pressure gets to be higher than the oil pressure relief valve, all the oil sits in the tank and you get no oil to the crankshaft... and you say you have PCV issues?
Did you also have REAL foamy/aerated oil? Some foam is OK and to be expected in any dry sump, but excessive aeration shows a problem... and excessive aeration means you're pumping air into the crank, which doesn't lube very well, making the motor run hot.
MY issue is the obvious un-even wear on the cylinder walls. There was more wear where the cross hatch has been worn off, there are numerous places where the diameter is smaller, high spots, which is why it wore like that, but that leaves the rings un-supported in the low spots. Un-supported rings "flutter", which allows blowby which heats up the motor and makes for oil consumption... sound familiar?
Harley bottom ends are unique in the motorcycle world and have "knife and blade" rods
that have more wear points than a "normal" rod. If the get to the point where there is "sparkles" in the oil, they would knock like a MFer. Look for BABBITT in the oil, looks like a gray paste. Sieve the used oil through a coffee filter.
I've never seen it in a Harley, (the only Harley I've spent any real time with was a Pro-stock) but I've seen on Nortons often (same setup, big bore with a TRUE dry sump)... what happens if you get lots of blow-by is you pressurize the crankcase with air pressure, and if the air pressure gets to be higher than the oil pressure relief valve, all the oil sits in the tank and you get no oil to the crankshaft... and you say you have PCV issues?
Did you also have REAL foamy/aerated oil? Some foam is OK and to be expected in any dry sump, but excessive aeration shows a problem... and excessive aeration means you're pumping air into the crank, which doesn't lube very well, making the motor run hot.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
There was also a detonation issue in the past. I've seen that damage the lip of the piston which in turn scores a stripe down the cylinder.
Moot point now, the cylinder needs a visit to a machine shop, pistons are worth changing now.
The pics we've seen so far sould be uglier if the parts shown were responsible for a sudden stop with mechanical music.
sburns
Well-known member
When I rub my nail along the score marks in the cylinders I don't feel an edge.
The rear is much worse for scores then the front, which only had one.
The rear piston on the left does seem to match up with the score lines in the cylinder.
Something @bitzz mentioned about flutter.
When I would go to HD durham their parking lot as a slight incline. Every time I would get back on the bike it would have this metal rattle for a few secs. I'm pretty sure this is is the rear cylinder, and the flutter mentioned.
To speculate. When I took it apart there was no oil in the pushrods. I dunno if this is because it was sitting for a month before I could rip into it or something else. The other is the lifters were installed incorrectly the oil vent was on the wrong side. Not sure how much this might cause oil from going to the wrong place though.
Lastly it's strange this happened when I started to use Amsol oil a supposedly pure synthetic. My reason to switch to this was to help prevent pinging from last year. But I wonder if it was too thin? Possible, I dunno, I normally use a hybird blend of conventional/sythetic (HD sny 3 oil is a blend) maybe reading too many harley dude posts.
I still want to rip apart the rest of the primary to see what condition the main bearing is and the drive bearing just in case.
After that I'm at a loss, other then a seize.
I quickly did some poking around on F9, and a set of cylindars, pistons and rings is about a grand. Not that bad if that is what I need to do. Breather system needs to be re-done as well. Not sure how much that alone impacts the cylinders.
The rear is much worse for scores then the front, which only had one.
The rear piston on the left does seem to match up with the score lines in the cylinder.
Something @bitzz mentioned about flutter.
When I would go to HD durham their parking lot as a slight incline. Every time I would get back on the bike it would have this metal rattle for a few secs. I'm pretty sure this is is the rear cylinder, and the flutter mentioned.
To speculate. When I took it apart there was no oil in the pushrods. I dunno if this is because it was sitting for a month before I could rip into it or something else. The other is the lifters were installed incorrectly the oil vent was on the wrong side. Not sure how much this might cause oil from going to the wrong place though.
Lastly it's strange this happened when I started to use Amsol oil a supposedly pure synthetic. My reason to switch to this was to help prevent pinging from last year. But I wonder if it was too thin? Possible, I dunno, I normally use a hybird blend of conventional/sythetic (HD sny 3 oil is a blend) maybe reading too many harley dude posts.
I still want to rip apart the rest of the primary to see what condition the main bearing is and the drive bearing just in case.
After that I'm at a loss, other then a seize.
I quickly did some poking around on F9, and a set of cylindars, pistons and rings is about a grand. Not that bad if that is what I need to do. Breather system needs to be re-done as well. Not sure how much that alone impacts the cylinders.
Why is there so much carbon on the gasket (rear cylinder head, exhaust port side)? Is that loose carbon from disassembly or hard? Was rear cylinder leaking out at head gasket?
