BC Judge ruling on use of force

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ah, armchair quarterback...The judge needs to have some sense smacked into him.

So the officer is supposed to turn around and run? come again!?!?!? and then what, the perp turns around, runs the other way, finds a victim and clubs them to death? At that point the judge would have been saying that the officer was cowardly, and didnt perform his duty in stopping the perp.

screw that....

U come at me with a tire iron, metal object, WHATEVER, you're going down.

so the perp reaches for something in the car and the officer reasonably assumes maximum threat and pulls out the gun. At that point when the perp pulled out a tire iron, should the officer have called time out, pulled out his chart of "escalated violence" determined that the gun was 3 points too high on the graph and that pepper spray was a more reasonable deterent, put his gun away, pulled out the pepper spray and said "okay, game on!!"

get the **** out....

the pussification of the nation continues...

Canada, Harden the **** up!
 
Also, if the cop had not pulled the gun out when he did, he would have not had a chance to pull anything out by the time he figures out what the subject is pulling out of the trunk to the time that he needs to process the threat level and what to use he would be dead.
 
Where does the judge suppose the officer would fire his "warning shot"? Should he risk hitting an innocent bystander? Unbelievable!
 
promac said:
Where does the judge suppose the officer would fire his "warning shot"? Should he risk hitting an innocent bystander? Unbelievable!
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That's points to another reason to shoot at center mass instead of trying to somehow trick-shot a weapon out of an assailant's hand or merely wing him in the leg. Aiming for center mass provides the largest expanse of potential bullet back-stop even if the bullet does not land exactly on the aimed-for center mass. Trying to aim for the much lesser area offered by an assailant's limb gives a lot more opportunity for the shot to miss the assailant completely, and where the missed bullet goes from there is anyone's guess.

Warning shots are a stupid idea. Even if you fire in the air, what goes up will come down assuming it doesn't find a highrise condo window, an airplane or the CTV news chopper first.
 
turbodish said:
That's points to another reason to shoot at center mass instead of trying to somehow trick-shot a weapon out of an assailant's hand or merely wing him in the leg. Aiming for center mass provides the largest expanse of potential bullet back-stop even if the bullet does not land exactly on the aimed-for center mass. Trying to aim for the much lesser area offered by an assailant's limb gives a lot more opportunity for the shot to miss the assailant completely, and where the missed bullet goes from there is anyone's guess.

Warning shots are a stupid idea. Even if you fire in the air, what goes up will come down assuming it doesn't find a highrise condo window, an airplane or the CTV news chopper first.
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I beleive this is also why police officers use hollow point bullets. The round has almost no chance of going through a target and doing colateral damage.

As per the warning shots, what comes up must go down. Remember bullets fly at vastly faster than their terminal velocity. It will be a bonk on the head if by chance it came down and hit someone.



Edit: Actually I stand slightly corrected. It is possible for it to be lethal as shown by the Mythbusters crew. If the officer doesn't shoot at sufficient an angle the bullet can arc and kill people kilometers away.

Excerpt:
All of their tests, from the pig's head to the 9mm firing to the balloon, showed that a bullet fired perfectly straight up into the air is not lethal. However, it is also very difficult to shoot perfectly straight up into the air and, with the cases cited by Dr. Mohler, they have confirmed that people have died from bullets falling from the sky.
 
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turbodish said:
Warning shots are a stupid idea. Even if you fire in the air, what goes up will come down assuming it doesn't find a highrise condo window, an airplane or the CTV news chopper first.
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We can only dream :cool:
 
What is it, that leads people to think that a shot to the leg, is a non lethal response ?
No understanding of Anatomy and / or Bullets ?
Once a bullet hits bone, it can twist & go in any direction, add to that, a shattered bone is pretty sharp too.
A deflected bullet or bone cut, to the femoral artery, can kill you a lot faster than a couple in the chest area that do not hit vital organs.
Also. shooting someone running, in a leg, is more Movie, than real life, too easy to miss, then, where is that bullet going to go ? Add to that, stress factors & standard issue handgun,
Nah ! that is why cops get trained to shoot Center Mass & close up.
It makes for fast & cheap training.
( Not every cop, goes shooting, as a hobby )
 
Ridiculous ruling. That judge is absolutely out of touch, and has NO knowledge of police use of force training (or common sense). How someone that daft is allowed to rule on these types of matters absolutely astounds me.
 
It's time the judges get off the bench and show the cops how to do their jobs.

promac said:
Police should use warning shots or run away? "Take cover in the jungle gym!" :lmao:

Funny, but scary too. Pretty soon, officers across Canada will be disarmed! :rolleyes:

http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/SC/11/04/2011BCSC0456.htm

The suspect was off his medication, had set fire to his apartment and had ran from paramedics. When the first PO outran the other two he caught up to the suspect while the suspect was at his vehicle. The suspect was taking things out of the vehicle so the PO drew down on him. The suspect pulled out an iron bar then put it back and looked like he was going to prone out. He then rushed back to the vehicle, pulled out the Iron Bar, Rusted, Hollow, Approximately 24 inch length and a Black Crow Bar, Approximately 15 inch length raised them above his head and ran full speed at the PO. When he got to within 6 feet the PO shot him three times and stepped off to the side. The suspect continued to take steps past where he was standing and then fell.

Despite the fact that a warning shot might have sufficed in the situation, a warning shot was not fired.

Even with one or two potential weapons in Mr. Camasos hands, Constable Dukeshire who weighed almost one hundred pounds more and stood almost a foot taller than Mr. Camaso could not have had a reasonable belief that it was necessary to shoot Mr. Camaso for his own preservation. It was always apparent to Constable Dukeshire that Mr. Camaso did not have a gun in his hands.

Though Constable Dukeshire was attempting to back up quickly, it did not occur to him that turning and running away from Mr. Camaso was a reasonable alternative. Constable Dukeshire had already observed that he could run much more quickly than Mr. Camaso, but he failed to follow that reasonable alternative when Mr. Camaso ran out from behind his vehicle with a weapon or weapons in his hands.

While Constable Dukeshire later stated that there was no cover for him, that view appears to have been based on an assumption that Mr. Camaso had a gun. Even leaving aside the small trees to his left, Constable Dukeshire could have sought cover in the school playground area where there was a jungle gym climbing frame. :lmao:

Constable Dukeshire went immediately to the use of a firearm without considering whether there were alternatives available to him. In particular, he did not activate the police baton that he had with him. :lmao:

Putting myself in the position of Constable Dukeshire or putting a reasonable officer in the position of Constable Dukeshire, it is not reasonable to conclude that it is part of the responsibility of Constable Dukeshire to shoot Mr. Camaso three times and it is not possible on reasonable grounds to conclude that the force he used was necessary for the purpose of protecting himself and others from imminent or grievous bodily harm. Putting myself in the position of Constable Dukeshire or putting even an inexperienced officer in the position of Constable Dukeshire, it is not possible on reasonable grounds to conclude that the force that was used was necessary. Constable Dukeshire did not act on reasonable grounds when he shot Mr. Camaso.
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Rotten_Ronnie said:
It's time the judges get off the bench and show the cops how to do their jobs.
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We have those... In Ontario.. They also moonlight as executioners :cool:
 
Under what title ?
Ontario Hitmen Ltd ?
Anybody got a tlf nr ?

Errrr, if I somehow die in some sort of freak accident, everyone remember this post. :p
 
It would be very interesting to take one of the "Shoot the knife out of their hand" types and offer them a huge prize if they could demonstrate the ability. Let them practice at a gun range for as long as they want and then set up a typical crowded scenario using a villain armed with a paint brush instead of a knife and the shooter with a paintball gun. See who gets gets painted and where the stray "Paint" goes.

IIRC one of the US news events programs did something like this arming a bunch of college students with paintball pistols and having someone start a shootout. The paintballs were colour coded for logistics purposes and it turned out that the defenders did more damage than the attackers.
 
CruisnGrrl said:
i remember reading that officers are supposed to account for every shot fired and where it goes. even shooting at the guys feet can have ricochets. I'm all for police accountability but running away from some one attacking you? why bother having police?
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Police retreat from encounters all the time. They don't shoot everyone that they have an altercation with. Often times they determine that the best course of action is to avoid an altercation that will result in a shooting.
 
i don't care how much the cop outweighed the suspect, a crowbar will mess up anyones melon...and as for firing a warning shot, he can't just point his weapon up in the air and fire it and who knows who was in the immediate area...regardless, you charge a cop with a crowbar, prepare to get shot...
 
I don't think we should all judge the Judge. We only know so much. If the cop's actions actually fueled this situation with a crazy guy, and the cop was maybe a little excited with the chase and getting a little too caught up in the hunt and shot this guy, then manages to hide behind the badge, not giving any info to the toothless SIU, and the judge sees through all this and this is the best he can do, then he did good.

I am sure we don't know the whole story and can't believe the police version. For all we know he had no bars in his hands and was shot in the back.
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